Does it really matter...

[The Silver Fox]

Why do people seem to put so much stock into whether a Shaw Bros movie has the 'original' Mandarin or Cantonese? These movies were all shot dry, with no sound with the actors just mouthing whatever language they wanted.

The audio was added later for whichever market they were catering to, so there is no original language. I think it's funny that DVD companies use this 'original' verbiage as well. If it is the original audio track, how about dead silence as an audio option? It could be a cheap way to get another special feature on the DVD with no cost to the company.

[David Rees]

I see your point, but its nice to have the lip movements match the dialog, even if not perfectly.

[bratty]

I'm ignorant enough about the Chinese languages that it doesn't matter much to me! As long as they aren't dubbed into German I'm good. I'll take any Chinese audio track over English 9 times out of 10 too

[spannick]

i'll take any old German or English dubb over any Chinese Dub.

[Fang Shih-yu]

I take my cue of watching a Shaw Brothers movie with Mandarin audio (and subs) from the fact that this was the language these films got put out with in Hong Kong for the majority of the company's run. It's nice to take in a Shaw the way HK audiences did...or as close as I can get to the experience in the 21st century! When Cantonese and/or English tracks are options on a DVD, I'll sample them for about 30 minutes, usually; sometimes, I'll hear them completely!:squigglemouth: Anyway, I answer this question by saying it doesn't really matter, but I enjoy going back in a proverbial time machine to a Shaw theater in the late '60s through [most of] the '70s, provided there are subs!:wink:

[Improvisation]

I normally hate dubbing too. But I do recommend Iron Monkey 2 solely based on its dubbing. In fact, you won't be able to stop laughing at the dialogue, which is a good thing.

As amazon says, "the dubbing is unusually bad."

[Markgway]

It matters to me....

[bobo]

i prefer the original english dubs. as in the case of the english dub on the newly released RETURN OF THE ONE ARMED SWORDSMAN--maybe not. i am pretty sure that by now most people have heard that that dub was pretty emotionless and lifeless--not the regular dubbing crew. sad to say but if all shaws and other kung fu movies would have been done by that bunch the kung fu craze of the 70's and 80's may never have happened. i sure hope that was the only one they did.:tinysmile_angry2_t:

[make believe]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Navy"]I take my cue of watching a Shaw Brothers movie with Mandarin audio (and subs) from the fact that this was the language these films got put out with in Hong Kong for the majority of the company's run. It's nice to take in a Shaw the way HK audiences did...or as close as I can get to the experience in the 21st century!

This is the main reason to care, which I do. At the same time though, I do love the classic old (and only the old) English dubs as well. I'll take both audio options whenever possible.

[Killer Meteor]

I find it depends on how good each dialects dub was. EG I prefer the Mandarin Fist of Fury in Cantonese, but the Cantonese Drunken Master in Mandarin.

The option is best really.

[BaronK]

I just want the lips to match. CC made his stuff in Mandarin, it's what he spoke and most of his later crews were Taiwanese, so. LKL is a Canto speaker, as was his crew, so give me Canto there. Sun Chung Taiwanese, so he did Mandarin. The language that the director chose for the actors to speak onscreen.

[Iron Boat]

I realize I prefer how I remember first seeing it, I like the English dub for the films I grew up watching on television, for the films I've never seen before I like the mandarin with subtitles, I watched Avenging Eagle with Mandarin audio and didn't like it at all, it felt like a different movie, I totally prefer the English dub in that case. I think most of us will agree that the performance of many of those voice actors was part of the appeal.

[HAZ]

I like seeing all of the lang tracks included that exist for a film, mandarin, canto, english. With DVD & blu-ray, it's so easy to include them, so why not take advantage of the technology.

[Fang Shih-yu]

I just want the lips to match. CC made his stuff in Mandarin, it's what he spoke and most of his later crews were Taiwanese, so. LKL is a Canto speaker, as was his crew, so give me Canto there. Sun Chung Taiwanese, so he did Mandarin. The language that the director chose for the actors to speak onscreen.That's a unique way of approaching which audio to listen to, relative to those Shaw directors! I'll keep that in mind the next time I play a DVD of a Lau Kar Leung Shaw picture!:wink:

[masterofoneinchpunch]

One quote I found hilarious from Gordon Chan was (source Planet Hong Kong; take it with a grain of salt since he came in at the tail end of the Shaw Brothers with Behind the Yellow Line (1984)):

"Many directors, including the kung-fu master Lau Kar-leung, simply asked their players to recite numbers during takes and dubbed in lines later."

What also is interesting is that most actors didn't do there dubbing during that time (for a variety of reasons like Jimmy Wang Yu not speaking great Mandarin; also makes it more like a production line where they would be off doing other roles and the professional voices would do the dubbing (a bit like the Italian cinema; that's not Lancaster's voice in The Leopard :D).

[Fang Shih-yu]

...like a production line where they would be off doing other roles and the professional voices would do the dubbing (a bit like the Italian cinema; that's not Lancaster's voice in The Leopard :D)More than likely, this was how the Shaw movies got dubbed!:smile: Think about the mentioning of Jimmy Wang Yu's voice being dubbed due to "not speaking great Mandarin" (which I'm certain I first heard on the commentary track for DD's One-Armed Swordsman), however. Everyone in the cast was dubbed by altogether different people; Wang Yu's lack of fluency in Mandarin means nothing because of Shaw's "production line." (The notion Wang Yu would dub in his own voice was never gonna happen for the same reason.) The voice actor who wound up doing his part was a great match to the the character seen on-screen, that's for certain! How much different it would've been if Burt Lancaster did the voice of the swordsman!:wink:

[Killer Meteor]

More than likely, this was how the Shaw movies got dubbed!:smile: Think about the mentioning of Jimmy Wang Yu's voice being dubbed due to "not speaking great Mandarin" (which I'm certain I first heard on the commentary track for DD's One-Armed Swordsman), however. Everyone in the cast was dubbed by altogether different people; Wang Yu's lack of fluency in Mandarin means nothing because of Shaw's "production line." (The notion Wang Yu would dub in his own voice was never gonna happen for the same reason.) The voice actor who wound up doing his part was a great match to the the character seen on-screen, that's for certain! How much different it would've been if Burt Lancaster did the voice of the swordsman!:wink:

That's the problem I have with the Chinese dubbing - its so fake hearing three same actors do all the voices time and again. That said, Wang Yu's dubber was usually Roy Chiao, who has a great voice.

I think you can hear Wang Yu's real voice in Zatoichi meets the One Armed Swordsman. Coming from Shanghai (?) he must have spoken fluent Mandarin.

[Markgway]

It's often the character actors whose voices make the movie for me.

I like hearing Ching Miao, Ku Feng, Yang Chih-Ching, etc, in Mandarin.

[Fang Shih-yu]

That's the problem I have with the Chinese dubbing - its so fake hearing three same actors do all the voices time and again.Sometimes, it feels like they only had three voice actors doing the dubbing, English or Mandarin!:tongue: Another note about the Mandarin dubbers: it's interesting how one of those guys who often did "elderly" men also did voices for [latter-day] Fu Sheng and Kuo Chui! Some days, it bothers me...a little.:2:

[BigDruDogg]

I usually like to watch english dubbing if its available first, especially on the venoms films because the voices fit the guys perfect :wink:
I go back an watch the Chinese (mandarin, cantonese) on later viewings.. or sometimes never at all :crossedlips:

[Cesare]

That's the problem I have with the Chinese dubbing - its so fake hearing three same actors do all the voices time and again.
That's my problem with the English dubbing - though I have a greater problem with the fact that those ENG dubs are bloody retarded.

Occassional guilty pleasure in listening to a 'nonsense' here and a 'but still though' there is fine (and fun) but I think that butchering movies in the way the ENG dubs butcher old Shaw flicks should be punishable by a bullet in the stomach.

Preferring original sound to ENG dubs is simply a matter of avoiding crap.

I usually like to watch english dubbing if its available first, especially on the venoms films because the voices fit the guys perfect
They do? Since when? :squigglemouth: They sure didn't last time I watched an ENG dub of a Venom flick. I mean - those voices wouldn't fit anybody - maybe except for Daffy Duck or Cow and Chicken. :xd:

[Bronx Rican]

"Hmn... a mere Japanese."
All the evidence we need against that argument.

[BigDruDogg]

They do? Since when? :squigglemouth: They sure didn't last time I watched an ENG dub of a Venom flick. I mean - those voices wouldn't fit anybody - maybe except for Daffy Duck or Cow and Chicken. :xd:

I was being a bit facetious with my original comment, but I grew up watching the venom's flix with those weird British accents and they kinda grew on me.. I agree the original voice acting is highly superior. but out of nostalgia I enjoy watching the dubbing :wink:

[Cesare]

I guess I'll never be able to quite understand that as nostalgia is not much of a factor in my case. (Been into these films for only 3 years or so.)
But even when it comes to Hong Kil Dong or the 1986 version of Journey to the West - which I grew up with and feel rather nostalgic about - I prefer original sound to those old Czech dubs. (And old Czech dubs are waaaay better than the English ones...;-))

[VenomsFan]

They do? Since when? :squigglemouth: They sure didn't last time I watched an ENG dub of a Venom flick. I mean - those voices wouldn't fit anybody - maybe except for Daffy Duck or Cow and Chicken. :xd:

In studying and comparing the ENG dubbs with the chinese ones the ENG has the advantage IMO:

1. A truly synced EGN dubb the actors and post production crew synced the lips with the words spoken
2. The chinese dubbs are just read from the original scripts, no interpretation needed
3. The ENG dubbs had to take the script, translate it, not only sync the audio, but find an interpretation that could be spoken in the same amount of time the lips moved.
4. All the above included, the dubbers were also "voice actors" meaning they also worked on giving the actors character and personality. That work has only been realized with newer animation films and is alot more challenging
5. Comparing the fight scenes the noises, grunts and yells were also dubbed which is going above and beyond than just reading the voice parts only.

Aside from nostalgia, this is an awesome science when looked at closely. It just shows how much work they actually put into it.

[Blood Sword]

I see your point, but its nice to have the lip movements match the dialog, even if not perfectly.So you can understand chinese well then?I do not,when they talk my time goes into reading subtitles,not watching characters lips.
Cantonese or chinese does not make any difference to me.
I understand thai averagely well so in United releases where thai is primary audio track I change it to chinese because thai I do not want to hear in shaws.I`m not fan of english dubs either.

[bobo]

i think i should point out again something that a lot of you seem to over look when it comes to the classic english dubs. without them there would have been NO kung fu craze from the 70's to the 80's. there would have been NO shaws in america--there would have been NO shaws on tv. in short there would have been little or no interest in kung fu movies in north america. PERIOD. without the dubs the only place some of these would have been seen would have been chinese language theaters and they would have quickly disappeared. you know it and i know it. the english dubbed shaws are what made these movies known and famous-- in fact all kung fu movies, not just the shaws. i still to this day have not met a single person who will watch, let alone buy a sub titled only movie. another thing that always bugs me on this subject is the way dub haters seem to imply that people who like the eng dubs are simps or something and that all the eng dubs should be put out of existence. i think its time you woke up to reality and smelled the coffee. to this very day the few non dubbed shaws that were ordered in still sit on the dvd shelves and are part of the reason very few stores will order them in. without the english dub no one will buy them--simple as that.

[BigDruDogg]

i think i should point out again something that a lot of you seem to over look when it comes to the classic english dubs. without them there would have been NO kung fu craze from the 70's to the 80's. there would have been NO shaws in america--there would have been NO shaws on tv. in short there would have been little or no interest in kung fu movies in north america. PERIOD. without the dubs the only place some of these would have been seen would have been chinese language theaters and they would have quickly disappeared. you know it and i know it. the english dubbed shaws are what made these movies known and famous-- in fact all kung fu movies, not just the shaws. i still to this day have not met a single person who will watch, let alone buy a sub titled only movie. another thing that always bugs me on this subject is the way dub haters seem to imply that people who like the eng dubs are simps or something and that all the eng dubs should be put out of existence. i think its time you woke up to reality and smelled the coffee. to this very day the few non dubbed shaws that were ordered in still sit on the dvd shelves and are part of the reason very few stores will order them in. without the english dub no one will buy them--simple as that.

I agree 100% I know personally that growing up I wouldn't have had any interest in reading the sub-titles in the movies, that's something that I came to appreciate much later in life. So dubbing was always something I looked for when watching/buying karate movies early on.

But as far as the TV stand point you hit the nail on the head, because in those times they would never put a program on air w/o spoken english...The crazy thing is even with the dubbing, shaw movies and martial arts films in general have a very small following stateside anyhow, and without the dubbing early on I doubt it would've even survived (locally)

But, I'm a big anime fan also and have these same debates with "purists" all the time with subbing/dubbing.. and personally I'll first watch the dubbing if its available.. but I don't hate on others choices, to watch it in it's original format, whatever floats your boat!

[dionbrother]

The Shaw movies have a small following in the States because they haven't played on television in nearly 20 years. In the 80s, they saturated UHF weekend television. Had they consistently played on tv in the last two decades, they would have a bigger following. The majority of people buying the new dvd reissues are fans from the old days. When you pull an entire library of movies from the syndication markets, you lose a chance to attract the next generation of viewers. Because they haven't stayed in the public eye, new fans (conditioned on Jackie/Matrix/Jet Li) look at them as antiquated and silly. The Shaw movies lost out on about two generations of potential fans. And yes, the dubbing was essential because mainly kids were watching Black Belt Theater. Had they been subtitled, the kung fu movie fandom would be smaller, like the Stateside following for chambara movies.

Dubbing was essential in attracting children to watch foreign movies, whether it was kaiju eiga, peplums, Italian horror, spaghetti westerns or kungfu movies. That's what we grew up with. Kids today don't know and don't care about the old stuff, because it rarely plays on television and we have this weird attitude that dubbing is bad, so no stations take chances on broadcasting these films. Tell that to Japan, France or Germany, where American movies play DUBBED on television.

A reliable source at a major anime company recently said the english-dubbed cartoons outsold the subtitled versions 3 to 1 in the old vhs days. I imagine the numbers for kungfu movies were even greater.

[vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

The Duel being released today has some of the best english dubbs. Translations and synching are very good in this film. I'll be pickin up this flick thursday and be watching it this weekend. Nice!

[Jesse Smooth]

Let's not forget a 2% of fans who came to the genre via Wu Tang in the form of 3rd generation Ocean Shores tapes.

[Fang Shih-yu]

i think i should point out again something that a lot of you seem to over look when it comes to the classic english dubs. without them there would have been NO kung fu craze from the 70's to the 80's. there would have been NO shaws in america--there would have been NO shaws on tv. in short there would have been little or no interest in kung fu movies in north america. PERIOD.The whole of your comment is very true! It's a long road from English-dubbed Shaws in theaters to DVDs and BDs with language options, but Brother Fang (enjoyer of Mandarin and Cantonese tracks with subs) knows enough to thank the moviegoers of the '70s for going out and seeing these films in the first place, and they had no choice in the audio they listened to! All of us here now are grateful for the kung fu "craze" of then! :khi5d:Happy dance!

[Markgway]

Why do we keep having this same old conversation?

Those who like dubs are convinced they're right...

Those who like subs are convinced they're right...

No one is going to change their mind. Ever.

[kungfusamurai]

While I would like the voices to match the lips, I don't mind the dubbing, as long as it's not a dub created in the last decade. In other words, if they don't have a mandarin audio for mandarin lip movement, I'd rather just have the old school cantonese or English than an updated mandarin audio track.

KFS

[dionbrother]

Dubbing is a lost art. I haven't heard a good dub on anything recent in 15 years. A lot of the classic dubbing teams came from old time radio and theater and that added some quality to their work.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Why do we keep having this same old conversation?

Those who like dubs are convinced they're right...

Those who like subs are convinced they're right...

No one is going to change their mind. Ever.

Damn! I thought for sure you would change your mind after reading this thread.

Oh well, you will become a fan one day. We just have to keep shoving this stuff down your throat. Here's one example of why English dubs are better than reading subs. Last Hero in China-

Jet- "Do you know this stance?"
Hsu- "It's the drunken I can't even get it up stance isn't it!"
Jet- "Wrong, you're wrong. It's the I stole your girlfriend stance."



Now here's what the subtitles say-

Jet- "What kind of stance is this?"
Hsu- "It's Han's Flute!"
Jet- "Wrong! It's the Drunken Crane."



One of those is better than the other. Don't be afraid to admit it:xd:

[Jesse Smooth]

Dubbing is a lost art. I haven't heard a good dub on anything recent in 15 years. A lot of the classic dubbing teams came from old time radio and theater and that added some quality to their work.

Everything done today is done by snot nosed anime dorks and the quality sounds and feels plastic.

[Fang Shih-yu]

Why do we keep having this same old conversation?Because.... (1) New people keep coming into the conversation, adding their opinions. AND (2) A lot of us are old, and we keep repeating ourselves to distract us from thinking about our hardening arteries!:tongue:

[BigDruDogg]

Jet- "Do you know this stance?"
Hsu- "It's the drunken I can't even get it up stance isn't it!"
Jet- "Wrong, you're wrong. It's the I stole your girlfriend stance."



Now here's what the subtitles say-

Jet- "What kind of stance is this?"
Hsu- "It's Han's Flute!"
Jet- "Wrong! It's the Drunken Crane."


LMAO, I gotta go rewatch that flick, I forgot all about that line :Ayociexp119:

[BigDruDogg]

Because.... (1) New people keep coming into the conversation, adding their opinions. AND (2) A lot of us are old, and we keep repeating ourselves to distract us from thinking about our hardening arteries!:tongue:

Don't mention age man... I'll be turning the big 3-0 in a few weeks..... I've already sprouted some gray... I guess I'll just start going for the pai mei look...