how succesful were the venoms films?

[Sandpalm79]

I have heard a few people say these movies werent that succesful? i think i heard this mainly from bey logan on the five deadly venoms commentary.

that is surprising considering we are all still drooling over them over a quarter century later and half the world away. I mean was there a large fan base. was chiang shengs nickname cutie pie etc started in this fanbase? Any info be great!

[Markgway]

The Venoms weren't particularly popular in Hong Kong.

They have a greater fanbase in the west (now and then).

[Sandpalm79]

The Venoms weren't particularly popular in Hong Kong.

They have a greater fanbase in the west (now and then).

how were they more popular in america ( if thats what you mean by west) back then? didnt know they screened the movies here until years later with VHS imports etc and airring on TV dubbed

[gorhama]

I've heard stories of many SHAW vets even the likes of Gordon Liu who were shocked to find out how many fans they had in the West compared to their home.

So I'm not shocked that the Venoms were and are not as popular in Hong Kong.

[Markgway]

how were they more popular in america ( if thats what you mean by west) back then? didnt know they screened the movies here until years later with VHS imports etc and airring on TV dubbed

A number of the Venoms movies were released theatrically in the US (eg. Crippled Avengers). But I guess the enduring popularity is down to the TV screenings.

Gordon Liu was a lot more popular in Hong Kong than the Venoms. The reason why so many stars are surprised at their overseas fanbase is because Shaws deliberately kept it from them. Guess they were afraid they'd ask for more money or try to leave for pastures new.

[Sandpalm79]

A number of the Venoms movies were released theatrically in the US (eg. Crippled Avengers). But I guess the enduring popularity is down to the TV screenings.

Gordon Liu was a lot more popular in Hong Kong than the Venoms. The reason why so many stars are surprised at their overseas fanbase is because Shaws deliberately kept it from them. Guess they were afraid they'd ask for more money or try to leave for pastures new.

thanks for the info. the reason i find the shaws hiding this info from them so sad, is because do you ever wonder if Chiang Sheng had known how much us fans care about him. ( i think he's seriously a legend) maybe it could have prevented his decline and subsequent death. Its impossible to say. but i always wished he would have known how many people adore him and enjoy his work to this day

[dionbrother]

I was told MASKED AVENGERS was a big hit in HK and Chinatown cinemas. Too lazy to research it, though.

[Markgway]

the reason i find the shaws hiding this info from them so sad, is because do you ever wonder if Chiang Sheng had known how much us fans care about him.

Sadly, probably not. He was struggling to find work in Taiwan when he died. Chinese cinema is more global these days - the internet provdes immediate feedback and promotion - but when Chiang died he had no way of knowing his value outside his homeland. Liu was shocked, as you say, and he was a much bigger star than Chiang.

[Markgway]

I was told MASKED AVENGERS was a big hit in HK and Chinatown cinemas. Too lazy to research it, though.

Actually Masked Avengers was one of their least successful films in Hong Kong...
Generally the films played to diminished returns.
A few of them could be considered outright flops.
Their biggest hit was The Five Venoms - their first - in 1978.

[Blood Sword]

but production costs were fairly low so I guess Shaws business persons were happy with venoms.

[Iron Boat]

Seems to me the films became more popular after the fact. After its initial release and maybe years later. Imo, Venoms are not that popular in the west. Only cult fans follow and collect their films. They have never been a mainstream success in the West. In reality that's what poplarity is, how strong is interest with general audiences especially when the subject is film sales.

[The Dragon]

... The reason why so many stars are surprised at their overseas fanbase is because Shaws deliberately kept it from them. Guess they were afraid they'd ask for more money or try to leave for pastures new.

YOU'VE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!

:nerd:

[Sandpalm79]

YOU'VE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!

:nerd:

just curious where did you guys hear( or read) of this?

[gorhama]

A number of the Venoms movies were released theatrically in the US (eg. Crippled Avengers). But I guess the enduring popularity is down to the TV screenings.

Gordon Liu was a lot more popular in Hong Kong than the Venoms. The reason why so many stars are surprised at their overseas fanbase is because Shaws deliberately kept it from them. Guess they were afraid they'd ask for more money or try to leave for pastures new.

Very interesting and makes a lot of sense!!

[Athena]

just curious where did you guys hear( or read) of this?

Hey Sandpalm !
In some ways it is sort of "common knowledge" or accepted in general if you study any of the early decades of the HK movie industry. But I believe it is more a combination of the Shaw studio taking advantage the prevalent attitudes & general political setting in HK in the 60,70 & 80s.

Aldo run by the British & fairly cosmopolitan/International, you must remember the remarkable Chinese mentality. Chinese politeness & humility are far from what we associate with the words in the West. A Chinese will take to their palace : But talk about it as " My rundown,worthless,embarrassing, trashed out, etc hut ...Will introduce you to his son: A 3 times national wushu champion as: " My worthless, lazy son ". ...His daughter: Miss HK , Graduate of Oxford etc. as "My ugly ,stupid etc.daughter" .

When this is the prevalent attitude on self worth It will become standard for the "powers that be " ( Shaw Brothers, Chinese government waiting behind the curtain ,other corporations etc...) to take advantage of this to undermine Western promotions.

I just want to point out this is not at all a "Shaw thing " but rater a by-product of the combination/mixing of centuries of Chinese culture with the Communist influence.

Well that was today's CHINA 101 ...Class dismissed , Hehe !!

Xiexie,Athena ..♥

[dionbrother]

It is also possible that some films got a different response in Chinatown theaters across the US and Europe than in Hong Kong. Doesn't seem to be any database tallying such numbers. EASTERN CONDORS bombed in HK but did well in some US Chinatowns. I was told it was vice versa for ACES GO PLACES V, as the pro-mainland ending reached Boston's Chinatown after Tiananmen Square. THE KILLER was a bigger hit in the US than in HK. Because prints were often "bicycled" across the country into double features, those numbers would be hard to get.

[BaronK]

Different people did differently in different places. CC, Woo and Kurosawa were all more appreciated abroad then at home. Same for Venoms.
When Black Belt theater first started in my area, it was at 8 pm and the movie was 5DV. That was the start for them and for all of the WW, World Northal picture packages to come.
CC/Venoms themes/movies are easily digested by western eyes/stomachs. Back then most was seen by the mainstream masses on tv. Theaters were not the best option/accessible to many. Back then, we never heard of Sammo or Biu or those guys. They were not on tv. Jackie was known for Cannonball Runs and Battlecreek Brawl. The Venoms were huge, as was DC, TL, Chuck Norris, John Liu, Bruce Li, and The Master Killer. The Venoms were known across the nation by their nicknames. Lau Kar Fai the same. They shaped our love for martial pictures as we grew up.
US, England, France and Germany were big markets for KF and SB as well. Many of the prints some of us were able to see over the years were German or french only prints. Some of them were Venoms pictures.
They were indeed big. HK didn't care for the themes that CC used, western audiences loved them. Masked Avengers bombed. It's a top fave here. It's just the way it goes. If given a choice, I'd like to meet Lu Feng any day of the week over Jack or Biu. He and they are some of my biggest influences. I personally am drawn to them more than any other(s) in regard to martial picture performers.

[Markgway]

It is also possible that some films got a different response in Chinatown theaters across the US and Europe than in Hong Kong.

Very true.

Action masterpiece Eastern Condors wasn't a big hit but local audiences LOVED the Lucky Stars comedies.

Pretty much the reverse outside Hong Kong/Asia.

[Sandpalm79]

Different people did differently in different places. CC, Woo and Kurosawa were all more appreciated abroad then at home. Same for Venoms.
When Black Belt theater first started in my area, it was at 8 pm and the movie was 5DV. That was the start for them and for all of the WW, World Northal picture packages to come.
CC/Venoms themes/movies are easily digested by western eyes/stomachs. Back then most was seen by the mainstream masses on tv. Theaters were not the best option/accessible to many. Back then, we never heard of Sammo or Biu or those guys. They were not on tv. Jackie was known for Cannonball Runs and Battlecreek Brawl. The Venoms were huge, as was DC, TL, Chuck Norris, John Liu, Bruce Li, and The Master Killer. The Venoms were known across the nation by their nicknames. Lau Kar Fai the same. They shaped our love for martial pictures as we grew up.
US, England, France and Germany were big markets for KF and SB as well. Many of the prints some of us were able to see over the years were German or french only prints. Some of them were Venoms pictures.
They were indeed big. HK didn't care for the themes that CC used, western audiences loved them. Masked Avengers bombed. It's a top fave here. It's just the way it goes. If given a choice, I'd like to meet Lu Feng any day of the week over Jack or Biu. He and they are some of my biggest influences. I personally am drawn to them more than any other(s) in regard to martial picture performers.

me too man! thanks for the insight.

And wanted to add that i feel so blessed that i can share the love with all of you for these movies and the venoms especially. Its such a small niche that everytime i read posts on here im still shocked that others love these like me. i still havent met anyone in person yet though that loves the venoms movies to the extent we do. strange huh?

[Fang Shih-yu]

I was lucky enough to have grown up in Hawaii where there was a Shaw owned theater.What was the theater like? Did workers ever wear blue blazers with the SB shield logo on them, like they did in the scene from The Killer Snakes that took place at a HK Shaw theater?:ooh:

[teako170]

I think the word "success" is best defined in how they have influenced a core group of fans over the decades and how we continue to talk about such films 30 years later. The one individual we talked with at Chang Cheh's grave site must have thought we were all a bit crazy for traveling halfway around the globe to visit his final resting place.

But if that's how you measure success, then I'm sure CC was all smiles that day....


http://www.teako170.com/chang7g.jpg

[vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Great photo teako. Lu Feng. He certaintly dose'nt look like the bad guy of anything.

[Fang Shih-yu]

So that Shaw theater was closed by the mid '70s then!:sad: You obviously have fond memories of the place, RogueWarrior! I would guess it's from here you started your poster collecting, whether you got your first one there or not!:wink:

[Iron Boat]

I think the word "success" is best defined in how they have influenced a core group of fans over the decades and how we continue to talk about such films 30 years later. The one individual we talked with at Chang Cheh's grave site must have thought we were all a bit crazy for traveling halfway around the globe to visit his final resting place.

But if that's how you measure success, then I'm sure CC was all smiles that day....


http://www.teako170.com/chang7g.jpg

Great photo, but why do they remind me of Davy Boy from The Monkeys? Hey Hey were the Venoms! People think were snaking around!

[nectarsis]

My question is WHY weren't the Venom's (and films) more popular in Hong Kong? Cast? Subject? or??

[Fist Of Boss]

My question is WHY weren't the Venom's (and films) more popular in Hong Kong? Cast? Subject? or??

Cast...taiwanese actors were not warmly accepted by HK audience. But Mona Fong and Run Run& Run Me were extremely happy with speed CC and venom team made those movies.

[blue_skies]

Cast...taiwanese actors were not warmly accepted by HK audience. But Mona Fong and Run Run& Run Me were extremely happy with speed CC and venom team made those movies.

Other reasons could be new trends, lack of promotion with other stars movies being promoted heavier. Having said that I think you're probably right about the Taiwanese actors not being accepted. Even today 30 years on Wu Jing experienced discrimination because he's a mainland actor.

[Fist Of Boss]

Other reasons could be new trends, lack of promotion with other stars movies being promoted heavier. Having said that I think you're probably right about the Taiwanese actors not being accepted. Even today 30 years on Wu Jing experienced discrimination because he's a mainland actor.

New wave(where people fly, swords and palms shoot energy flash etc..) martial arts came to vogue few years later after venoms entered. Might be there was not enoug promotion but that is unfortunate. Uhm, kungfu comedy entered around 1978 tho....

[odioustrident]

It might sound crazy but the Venoms crew, albeit not a household name, is not that far from Jackie/Jet Li/Sammo in terms of popularity in New York. Most of the guys I've seen in Chinatown looking for films are looking for Venoms titles. The Stiller kiosks typically have the Venoms front and center next to Jackie etc... At least three or four NY non-rap music acts, across the genres, have songs or albums titled Five Deadly Venoms! People I talk to about kung fu mention the Venoms before anyone really.

The films were popular outside of Wu Tang Clan's promotion.

Certainly not a mainstream fanbase but closer than you would think; they're at the really high end of cult status here.

In regards to Venoms' popularity outside the West.... I had thought Taiwan retained a lot of its audience for Peking Opera when HK started to lose it.... Might be wrong on that but there are a lot of assumptions in this thread already.

[blue_skies]

New wave(where people fly, swords and palms shoot energy flash etc..) martial arts came to vogue few years later after venoms entered. Might be there was not enoug promotion but that is unfortunate. Uhm, kungfu comedy entered around 1978 tho....

yes I was actually thinking more about Jackie Chan's mix of kung fu and comedy perhaps being the new trend around the time of the venoms.

[Fanboy1991]

Venoms films typically would sell around one million tickets at best. Lau sifus films would do any where from 2 to 9 million. Jackie Chan's films like Drunken master could do 5 million to his 80's films doing up to 35 million.

[Killer Meteor]

I often think the Venoms were pigeonholed too much in the HK market by the vast majority of their films only being released in Mandarin, at a time when Sammo, Jackie and Lau Kar Leung was making Cantonese movies.

Also, Lo Meng got more exposure by being in other director's movies but I don't think Chiang Sheng or Lu Feng worked outside of Chang Cheh whilst they were in Hong Kong.

And most of the Venoms films were serious. Very few of them were comedies. Given the way the HK market had swung in favour of Cantonese comedy - heck, Michael Hui whooped Bruce's ass in 73 and Jackie's ass in '78, regardless of what Jackie's official books tell you - I think the Venoms were a niche before they got started.

Does anyone know if they were more popular in Taiwan?

[masterofoneinchpunch]

... heck, Michael Hui whooped Bruce's ass in 73 and Jackie's ass in '78, regardless of what Jackie's official books tell you - ...

RE: Jackie:

It depends on how you tally it up, but it doesn't seem much of an ass whooping. The Contract made more (according to HKFA, the different was about 1M HK$ with 7.8 to 6.7) than Drunken Master, but Jackie easily pulled in more box office since he was in several films that year (though two were really successful and the rest was less so).