Great Trek Memorial destroyed

[jirpy100]

Great Trek stone damage: Afrikanerbond speaks
April 13 2007 at 02:52PM

The destruction of a Great Trek memorial stone in Standerton should be condemned, the Afrikanerbond said on Friday.

"Actions like these undo the spirit of reconciliation as promoted by former president Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu," said Jan Bosman, spokesperson for the Afrikanerbond.

The destruction was apparently ordered by the mayor of Standerton and approved by the ANC in Mpumalanga.

Bosman said it was only through respect and understanding of each other's cultures and history that there could be progress with "much needed" reconciliation.

"Actions such as these are totally unnecessary and will polarise communities even further," he said in a statement.

"There is not only one history in South Africa."

Bosman said the diverse composition of South Africa's population, each with its own culture and history was testimony of a rich tradition and should be preserved.

"It is not in the hands of a mayor or a political party to rewrite history with irresponsible actions as displayed in Standerton."

Bosman said it was a pity that an important aspect of the Afrikaner's history, namely the Great Trek, was being held in contempt with such short-sighted actions.

The Afrikaner organisation said it would take up the matter with the mayor and Arts and Culture Minister Pallo Jordan.

The memorial, built for the 150th celebration of the Great Trek was destroyed on the orders of Standerton mayor Queen Radebe-Khumalo, the Beeld reported on Friday.

It consisted of a large concrete slab with the tracks of an ox wagon set in it. Thirteen ox wagons travelled through South Africa as part of the celebrations in 1988.

"That piece of thing means nothing to us. It's just a piece of cement with tracks. I do not even know where it comes from," Radebe-Khumalo was quoted as saying by the Beeld. - Sapa

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This came as such a shock to us. The Great Trek is a major event in the Afrikaners' history and similar to the westward expansion in United States' history. It was the desperate act of Dutch Settlers who refused to live under British rule and decided to find new land to found two independant states in. Which the British attacked during the 1st and 2nd Boer War after we discovered diamonds and gold.
I'm not angry at the ANC for doing this, I feel sorry for them. To willingly destroy part of our unique culture & history, what type of reconcilliation is this?

[silver hermit]

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18112446/?GT1=9246 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18112446/?GT1=9246)

[jirpy100]

Cool.

I see Canada also treats Indians like animals. What's the exact figure of them who died because of unsanitary conditions and neglect, 10 000's, 100 000's? Canadians are obviously barbarians.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...73_pf.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/26/AR2005102602173_pf.html)

jaie.asu.edu/v39/V39I1A2.pdf

www.thecanadianencycloped...RTJ0003980 (http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Params=J1ARTJ0003980)

[silver hermit]

can you read? :rollin you would have been better served attacking the chinese head tax. have you been doing some research and ready for another constructive conversation? i'm sure all the board wants another right? we can allways use more useful facts ;)

[jirpy100]

1. I watched one of the worst movies I've seen in many years today, A Sound of Thunder.
2. Yes, I can read. Although that clearly doesn't mean much.
3. The Chinese? How can they hold the Olympics, aren't they still communist? And don't they still violate people's rights like making people have up to 6 pass books if they are workers from the Southern parts? And supressing all opposition?
4. Useful facts are good sources for propoganda.
5. Arguing about stuff is awesome. Especially anonymously on the internet.

These letters should explain my opinion very well, althought you obviously don't have to read them, because I'm obviously trying to get a rise out of you, although I must admit that these letters are very honest, and quite the opposite of what I normally say when not thinking. The quoted paragraphs are from my correspondent's orignal letters.

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ANC fears/Ideology

You should have been straight with me from the start! Also, I was not sure whether you were being sarcastic by writing in English – I only now realised that you post exclusively in English.

My charge is not that you are misquoting or that you are quoting out of context, but rather that your use of this aspect of Nietzsche's philosophy is disingenuous. On the surface all is well, but what is left out is Nietzsche's consequent philosophy regarding the "Superman" or "Will to Power". It is this part, which is present by implication in your writing, that I find dangerous.

I wholeheartedly agree, and know very well what part Thus Spoke Zarathustra played in the Nazi party’s ideology. And that each member of the German army was issued a copy. But I also know that Nietzsche was against fascism in all forms. The corrosion of his friendship with Richard Wagner also showed the disdain he had for aspects of western culture, along with the rise of anti-Semitism which is very much alive today still. I personally interpret his ideas as a tool for spurring on people, to excel in his/her personal capacity, and from that a very empowered society can emerge. Instead of the domination of others due to being considered an Overman (Kaufman-translation), the only domination I wish to see people achieve is personal domination. To do that, one has to die, give up a lot. As god dies in the book. The latter is to empower people, to make them realize that they do not need to look to a higher being for support, but inward. Unfortunately, the oversimplification of this ideal has done a lot more harm than good and he would have been appalled if he’d lived through the rise of the National Socialist Party.

I am not charging you with an odious philosophical position, but merely that your use of this particular fragment resonates with such a terrible history that it becomes burdened by it per implication. This is surely not what you meant?

I did not differentiate between culture and politics – two very different things. So you ended up seeing a muddled opinion which implicitly leads to the disenfranchising of one or another race due to their current stance in society, or culture. This was not my intention. I was responding to the ideology that gave birth to the ANC’s beliefs. They truly believe that socialism is necessary for development during the initial period, and that one can switch to democracy afterwards. But who would regulate this process? I would also like to note that there is a big difference between the system of governance and that of the economy.

Europe is a lot more socialist than the USA, yet they also work on free-market capitalist principles. Providing free (or at least affordable) schooling, housing and health care should be goals for every government. My fear is that the current government wishes to employ Maoist tactics such as aggressive land redistribution, instead of a slower, but safer method. I think they should focus more on short-term goals, as they will add up. Creating a million new sustainable jobs is great work for example. They should choose their role-models more carefully, because the whole world is watching us. I know they lean more toward Soviet-style communism, than say Maoism, but still ...

At the moment it is only the economy that is in jeopardy in the immediate future. As people we are very free as far as rights go. But as governments lose support, they tend to distort democracy to cling to power. You cannot argue that there has been a gradual and visible move toward more government interference in business. Especially with a young and inexperienced government, this could lead to more strikes, more unhappiness, and ultimately they will have to suppress the “bourgeoisie” masses – each who want what he is PERSONALLY due. In this sense, they will be working against personal gain – the Nietzschean ideal – where each person’s personal conquest benefits the whole. The man who works for himself, works the hardest.

What if the government cracks under pressure from the population for quicker action? What does redistribution of wealth really mean? It’s not really about hard cash, and you cannot transfer something that is intangible! By giving people more power (BEE-Black Economic Empowerment) you are not necessary empowering people, though it’s the apparent result. It must be sustainable, and of greatest importance: earned power.

Back on the Afrikaners, to simplify ... The first settlers were not free for many years, and subsequently were running from the British (or like the French, fleeing the Catholics in Europe). And each time they started from scratch, until they gained a state of relative independence. With the discovery of diamonds, and finally gold, the English acted. Reading through Boer War letters, it’s clear that racial tensions heightened during this time. In many areas natives were given the right to do as they please (by the British), meaning many women left alone on farms were raped and killed. You’ll remember that the clause about racial issues in the peace treaty were certainly influenced by these events.

It’s really only the last two generations of white Afrikaners who have lived the Western urbanised fantasy. Now, after only a few decades, we might lose everything again. It is a simple struggle for survival. But I am not working against the government, and I don’t think too many people should emigrate unless they really need to. The capital of the whites is needed to keep the country stable, and by going into a panic, and de-investing, they can be the cause of the very issues they were trying to prevent!

The blame you level at African Marxism can be equally directed towards Christianity or Capitalism. I am not necessarily arguing that Marxism is right, but rather that your criticism is better off being directed at the failure of humans to live up to their ideals.

My problem is that it’s counter-intuitive for me as a Westerner to accept this communal idea. And it’s a lot easier to sacrifice a many for the many in an altruistic society, than in a democratic one. Mugabe, being a student of Maoism, learned that, even if half your people die, it’s the long-term goals you should focus on! Even Mbeki said in Tanzania last week that the land redistribution simply had to happen. But it came at such an unreasonable cost! Though I understand the idea of getting everyone up to a certain standard before loosening the leash.

But this idea of separating the presidency from the party’s, and giving so much power to the ANC president, seems like the action of an insecure or elitist bunch, and it could result in someone being ANC president for 20 years. Power corrupts ... you know the rest.


Final thoughts (the following letter)

If we take the idea of personal freedom/power seriously, then a Democratic system has as much deficiency as a Marxist system in its application. In both systems the individual is made subservient to the need of the masses.

Therefore, Nietzschean philosophy can only be fully realized in a libertarian society. But, that is beside the point. As stated in my first letter: I am not blind to the benefits of socialism/communism, and find the ideology very humanistic, but because of human nature, its application always fails.

I would further argue that it is in the nature of any state aparatus to exert increasing control over the individual. The problem is one of utility rather than "pure" ideology. All systems enslave by virtue of their need to effect an ideology.

Then the question is really whether one system is better than another. The lesser of two evils is democracy. True equality is but a distant dream at this stage of human development. I cannot support a theocracy, for instance, and applaud the separation of Church and State. In the USA people are moaning about the government monitoring all communications. But it’s a good example of a democracy acting for the good of all. Even though this affects individual freedom, in a manner, the majority may benefit by having further terrorist attacks prevented. But these minor infringements are far removed from the kind of sacrifices the masses often have to endure under other regimes.

I think all political ideologies ultimately have the same end-result in mind (equal civil rights, access to education, etc), although their actions do not equalize. As quoted before, some governments only consider socialism as a short-term measure. Socialism is a lot more attractive to countries where the majority suffers. Someone once said that, when one reaches perfection in democracy, you get socialism. Whether this is true, I do not know. ;)

Here I agree, but would point out that the failure of Marxism is often the result of merely substituting one elite/ruling class with another.

That’s a tautology, I believe.

It is not a failure of Marxism, but a failure of its application. I submit that your fears are not the result of the ideology of the state, but rather a fear of the state as an entity that has power over you. I had more status in the previous regime, but my discomfort with its power is the same as my discomfort with the current regime. Are we not therefore really discussing our status within a state system rather than the system itself? If you agree with me on this, then our focus is of course no longer on the type of existential power Nietzsche had in mind.

I would not bring Nietzsche into this. I don’t currently have any problem with my status. I am more equal than I would have been if I was simply treated as a 90th percentile minority. In practice, companies do not have a 10% limit for white employment, for instance. And besides for my social obligation in terms of generating income, etc, I have the personal freedom to do pretty much as I please.

If you insist on pointing out the effect of the system on the people, then you are guilty of exactly the type of altruism that Nietzsche warns about. I guess we all have to right to be concerned with our comfort and status, but this has nothing to do with the state's current ideology and everything to do with how the state chooses to apply its ideology.

Yet, a study of nations employing African socialism makes it clear that the ideology is rarely worth the paper it’s been written on. But following that line of thought, one can simply argue that the Zimbabwean land redistribution was in step with the ideology of equal possession; therefore, the action was justified. Yet, at the cost of individual rights that include basic services and/or access to employment, food, etc.

I think democracy has a more pragmatic approach to things, in that one is guaranteed basic rights, yet have the option to enrich yourself – regardless of circumstances. Meaning, a homeless person can live in a shelter, and be fed there while studying at a community college. Yet, a rich man does not have to divide his house in half to house this man (I’m not this naive, but the possibility does exist).

Just to be clear: I am not an ardent follower of Nietzsche, neither am I well-versed in all his works. And I do not judge governments based on any conclusion drawn from his words either. I do not actively pursue any form of government or philosophy. When I am angry or desperate, I am far-right, otherwise moderate, and sometimes even a bit left.

Rudolph

[silver hermit]

well i see where your coming from basicly our last chat you might have given the wrong impression fair enough. i was just expressing that we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes if we don't learn from the past, not condem anyone because i'm no ones judge.
you gave me the impression that you are willing to at least hear a few of my humble points before and the fact you brought up the natives or first people in our country(don't call them indians!) got me thinking what is the source? i wondered these are themes that keep repeating why?

last time you took me out of context then decided to end the conversation so i left it at that. since we a clearing things up..

symbiate relationship = colonialism
get it? personal attack? i disagree

here is some interesting info i came across. not as interesting as wanchaitransients but... ;)

colonial.arts.utas.edu.au/ (http://colonial.arts.utas.edu.au/)

www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/in...lonies.htm (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/colonies.htm)

www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Intro.html (http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Intro.html)

www.fresno.k12.ca.us/scho...ialism.htm (http://www.fresno.k12.ca.us/schools/s090/lloyd/imperialism.htm)