from Ground Zero to Image

[Lei Kung]

I just bought Legendary Weapons the other day, about the only movie I've ever upgraded as this is a long time favorite and there's always been enough other movies to buy before worrying about upgrading the ones I have. It was amazing seeing it in this form... liked it as much as the first time I saw it. Anyway, this made me wonder...

Before the Celestials started coming out, was there a legitimate way to see LWoC (or most of the classic kung fu Shaws) on home video in existence?

*posted this in the wrong forum*

[spannick]

sure there was. UK (cut) and Dutch (uncut) VHS at least. ("INVINCIBLE POLE FIGHTERS"). both from Warner Home Video

[Markgway]

The Invincible Pole Fighters was Eight Diagram Pole Fighter.

Legendary Weapons of China was Legendary Weapons of Kung Fu.

[spannick]

you're right of course. my brain is boiling over today. well, it was at least issued by Warner in the Netherlands. no idea if it was issued in the UK, but IF it would have been severely cut most liikely.

[Linn1]

it was released in the UK, cut and with a different dub track.

[Markgway]

The UK video of 'Legendary Weapons' was very badly cut (5:16 by the BBFC)

IIRC, all sight of shurikens and a duel with a three-section staff(?) were cut.

[Lei Kung]

I see, so there was never a US release until now? Also how long ago were the Warner Video releases available. I've been a fan since around 2001. At the time, when seeking out movies like 36th Chamber, Legendary Weapons, etc, all I could find were the Ground Zeros.

*sarcastically thanks George Tan*

[Linn1]

in the US were in the mid 80s. You can still find a few floating around in old mom and pop video stores. I actually bought an original large box Seven Blows of the Dragon in Media Play about five years ago. Collectors will know how strange that is!

[venomchamber]

Here in the U.S. there were several short-lived attempts.
Aside from the infamous Dragon Video tapes which were pirated edited for television prints from World Northal and duplicated onto Scotch T-120 videocassettes and those nasty Ground Zero EP/SLP overdubs, there were several legitimate releases, most notably these respectable high profile companies...

SOUTHGATE HOME VIDEO

1- TWO CHAMPIONS OF SHAOLIN
2- CHALLENGE OF THE MASTERS
3- DUEL OF FISTS
4- THE BELLS OF DEATH
5- KING BOXER

VISTA HOME VIDEO

1- SUPER NINJAS
2- SHAOLIN EXECUTIONER
3- SHAOLIN CHALLENGES NINJA
4- FISTS OF THE WHITE LOTUS
5- TEN TIGERS OF KWANGTUNG

WARNER BROTHERS (USA)

1- SEVEN BLOWS OF THE DRAGON
2- THE SEVEN BROTHERS MEET DRACULA
3- CLEOPATRA JONES AND THE CASINO OF GOLD
4- THE MIGHTY PEKING MAN (Quentin Tarentino's Rolling Thunder label.)

Sadly, the Image releases have been nothing but a major disappointment to me thus far.
Their Black Magic English audio was nothing but incoherent noise.
Their Super Inframan merely borrowed the audio track from the Goodtimes LP videotape release of Joseph Brenner's version.
The Legendary Weapons Of Kung-Fu was good, but had some audio drop-outs such as the cat & mouse noises they were making while fighting in the attic!
All of the others were the same as the IVL releases which I already have.
The only outstanding film would have to be The Boxer's Omen, only because this is only available on VCD!
Siren Visual Entertainment has released a dozen films with English dubbed audio well worth checking out!
Oddly, they have stopped releasing dubbed tracks on their films, and now they have stopped releasing any new titles period.

SVE (AU)

1- INVINCIBLE SHAOLIN
2- TWO CHAMPIONS OF SHAOLIN
3- HEROES TWO
4- THE HEROIC ONES
5- DUEL OF FISTS
6- SHAOLIN HANDLOCK
7- THE LIZARD*
8- THE MAGIC BLADE*
9- THE WEB OF DEATH*
10- THE TRAIL OF THE BROKEN BLADE*
11-TWELVE GOLDEN MEDALLIONS*
12-THE MIGHTY PEKING MAN
*These are all worth getting as they have never been shown in English (officially) here in North America!

Hope this info was useful.

[FiveSwords]

Thanks for the info, venom. Good stuff.

In general, how is the image quality of the SVE releases when compared to the IVL R3 NTSC versions?

[killer meteor]

Sirens all have the advantage of being genuine PAL, rather than the PAL-NTSC transfers the IVLs suffer from. Subs can be naff at times though

[Robert Ian Teller]

"Their Super Inframan merely borrowed the audio track from the Goodtimes LP videotape release of Joseph Brenner's version."

Also released by Prism in normal SP mode.

Did Embassy release any other Shaws besides Master Killer?

Did Fox Lorber release any other Shaws besides Chinatown Kid?

Street Gangs of Hong Kong was also released. Not sure of the company or if they had the legit rights though?

[Atomic Mystery Monster]

WARNER BROTHERS (USA)

4- THE MIGHTY PEKING MAN (Quentin Tarentino's Rolling Thunder label.)

I thought Rolling Thunder was owned by Miramax/Dimension. Weird...

Their Super Inframan merely borrowed the audio track from the Goodtimes LP videotape release of Joseph Brenner's version.

Someone once told me that they used an alternate English dub since Joseph Brenner still owned the rights to his version of the English soundtrack and felt that Image or Celestial didn't offer him enough money to justify his licensing it to them. He also mentioned that Brenner wasn't afraid of suing (He apparently went after a magazine that wanted to do an Infra-Man tribute), so it would seem pretty foolish to rip him off if he really did own the rights to the English dub. I've never heard the "classic" INFRAMAN dub, so I have no clue if this is true or not. Can anyone fill me in on this?

[venomchamber]

nothing "weird". It was a typo. Everyone on Earth knows Quentin Tarantino's Rolling Thunder is (was) owned by Miramax. Close enough. I was tired of typing and didn't want to start a whole new category for just 1 film, so I just decided to tack it on there at the end. (picky-picky)

Anyhoo...
Yep! The Image disc DOES INDEED USE THE BRENNER DUB! With tape hiss and all! Is Joseph Brenner even still around? I'm sure all the Inframan copyrights reverted back to the Shaws after 30 years.
If not, he'll have some lawsuit with them and Image!

There is a "but still" version. Has to be.
That was how the film was sold in the first place!
All Shaw films were made available in English. That was how they were sold to international markets.
I'm sure Brenner had it redone with the "Speed Racer" type voices to market it similar to the Japanese Godzilla films it so resembled at the time.
(Ironically, Godzilla Vs Megalon is loaded with all of the infamous "but still" voices heard throughtout Shaw films of the 70s!)

[Linn1]

Image did approach his people to do the disc and it's exactly as mentioned above.It was because Brenner has always thought of the film as his, he did sell it throughout the world. He's been fighting bootleggars for years over the film (one tape was pulled BTW) and he wasn't happy that someone else got the rights to the movie. He honestly thinks it's his film, and went so far as to tell Image he would take them to court if they tried to use the stereo English dub track he had or the trailers. Image could have used the trailers, as they are not copywrited, but they didn't want to go through all the trouble involved. But Image could use the non-stereo track via the same loop hole that allowed the old VHS tape to make it out without Brenner's people pulling it. As for rights, you're correct that they would revert back. But the problem is Brenner did the soundtrack himself, so that would not be owned by Celestial. So it was a choice between having what we got or no dub at all.

[sevenhooks]

There is a "but still" version. Has to be.
That was how the film was sold in the first place!
All Shaw films were made available in English. That was how they were sold to international markets.


Agreed.


I'm sure Brenner had it redone with the "Speed Racer" type voices to market it similar to the Japanese Godzilla films it so resembled at the time.
(Ironically, Godzilla Vs Megalon is loaded with all of the infamous "but still" voices heard throughtout Shaw films of the 70s!)



Funny you mention that because I always noticed that about the Godzilla vs. Megalon dub.
Perhaps that's why I always (maybe even subconsiously) dug that one even though it's almost universally panned as just about the worst Godzilla film ever.

((((SIDE NOTE: When I was about 6 or 7, I desperately wanted one of those insane "dolphin" riders that little kid was boating around on in the lake before he almost bit the dust!
:p :eek ))))

[sevenhooks]

So it was a choice between having what we got or no dub at all.


So I take it that the original "but still" dub could not / would not be found?
Has anyone actually ever HEARD the damn thing before??

[gfanikf]

Funny you mention that because I always noticed that about the Godzilla vs. Megalon dub.

Dude that movie is awesome, long time fav of mine. I had the art for the US poster (which Jess got me a rep of :) ) which had them fighting on the WORLD TRADE CENTER (no BS) on my cake at my 6th B-Day party.

Those movies from the 70s helped me fall in love with the art of Hong Kong dubbing.

[venomchamber]

Regrettably, I have several different copies of this movie, but have not yet turned up with the "international" dubbed version as of yet.
Prism VHS, Sinister Cinema VHS, Goodtimes VHS, a German VHS copy, French DVD, Celestial R3 DVD (+VCD with kubricks), Japanese DVD, and now Image's DVD.
If its out there, it'll turn up like everything else...eventually.

Anyone ever see a European copy with Dutch subtitles floating around? I suspect that would be the one to look for!

[spannick]

i don't think this was released in the Netherlands sadly. but as i said before somewhere, the German VHS has Original English Credits with no Chinese, so a Dub naturally would have existed. (the Brenner Dub has completely new Credits that have nothing to do with the Original ones; also it has replaced the Original Music)

[sevenhooks]

which had them fighting on the WORLD TRADE CENTER (no BS)

I remember that poster very well actually.
It was a not-so-subtle rip off of the Dino DeLaurentis King Kong poster.

[Linn1]

and they were told they did not have one.

[spannick]

you know that we can't trust Celestial on anything, right? see their TV Dubs on UK TV for Stuff they denied having - and then they will say to you "well, we found it yesterday, sorry".

[sevenhooks]

you know that we can't trust Celestial on anything, right? see their TV Dubs on UK TV for Stuff they denied having - and then they will say to you "well, we found it yesterday, sorry".

Bad situation.
Because a company like Image is only going to believe what they're being told by Celestial.
And Celestial is obviously too lazy to look for the damn dubs that we all know exist.
Either that or worse, they're intentionally "not finding" them in order to double dip sales down the road.
Or perhaps that's just me being paranoid, right?
:eek

[Atomic Mystery Monster]

And Celestial is obviously too lazy to look for the damn dubs that we all know exist.
Either that or worse, they're intentionally "not finding" them in order to double dip sales down the road.
Or perhaps that's just me being paranoid, right?

I dunno, both of those theories sound quite possible (although I'd like to pimp my "Celestial's trying to force licensors to find/restore the dubs so they don't have to spend any money on them" theory again). Then again, why would they intentionally not find dubs for Image but provide them to a British channel? It doesn't make any sense to me...

[venomchamber]

Ha!
Touche, mon ami!
Finally the whole picture is being realized!

I believe the main reason Celestial is...
skimpy with the bonus features,
no trailers,
cut back on the outer cardboard sleeves,
releasing some titles to VCD only,
no English dubs,
no more Malaysian subtitles,
trims, cuts, splices,
et cetera,
...is because they are just mass releasing them as quickly as possible in an attempt to make back some of the money it cost to remaster them in the first place!
I'm sure there will be special editions, director's cuts, more boxed sets, and better cover graphics once they re-release them again after this initial offering ends next year.
How else can they milk their cash cow for all their worth?
How many times do Paramount, FOX, and Warners re-release their stuff over and over again?

I say just give it time and all will become clear.

We'll all have everything we want, and then some!
Remember the old saying:
Be careful what you wish for!...you just might get it!
I can just see it now:
a 2-disc Chinatown Kid with the uncut version and the Taiwanese version, original theatrical trailers, English dub audio track, commentary by Jenny Tseng and Phillip Kwok,
deleted scenes, alternate ending, and a Behind the scenes featurette: on location in San Francisco.
aahhhhh...wouldn't that be nice!?
I am a patient man. I waited all this time, I think I could wait a little while longer! They say good things come to those who wait!
Maybe the Weinstein Company Dragon Dynasty label will be our saving grace! (hint, hint!)

[Atomic Mystery Monster]

nothing "weird". It was a typo. Everyone on Earth knows Quentin Tarantino's Rolling Thunder is (was) owned by Miramax. Close enough. I was tired of typing and didn't want to start a whole new category for just 1 film, so I just decided to tack it on there at the end. (picky-picky)

Heh. Actually, I was referring to it being weird that the Weinsteins would let someone else use Tarantino. Thanks for clearing that up, though.

He honestly thinks it's his film, and went so far as to tell Image he would take them to court if they tried to use the stereo English dub track he had or the trailers. Image could have used the trailers, as they are not copywrited, but they didn't want to go through all the trouble involved. But Image could use the non-stereo track via the same loop hole that allowed the old VHS tape to make it out without Brenner's people pulling it.

I'd like to hear more about this loophole; I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that using a non-stereo version of a (presumably )copyrighted stereo track is legit. Besides, wouldn't his ownership of the US rights to the movie as a whole (at the time) allow him to crush anyone who tried to put out an INFRAMAN video?

[venomchamber]

You'd think, right?

Like I said, (The Super) Inframan and all likenesses thereof are the intellectual property of Shaw Brothers (HK) Ltd.
Joseph Brenner merely dubbed and distributed the film in North America back in 1976.
The only thing he could possibly still own would be his original dubbed audio track (his "Dragon Mom" version only, and not any "Princess Elzebub" versions) including his alternate music score.
A lot of good this would do him without a film to go with it!
Perhaps his people did indeed strike a deal with Image for the DVD release?
Either way, it exists, and I'm glad I have one.
However, I personally would have preferred one with the infamous 70s voice actors myself!

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHO THEY WERE AND WHAT RECORDING COMPANY THEY WORKED FROM?
I know it wasn't Titra or Titan. They did mostly Toho sci-fi and samurai films in the 60s, Daiei's Gamera films, and the Sonny Chiba movies.
Maybe a Godzilla fan would know more about this kind of stuff, as they seem to know everything about what went on behind the scenes over at Toho. Any of you "G-Mafia" members out there?
The voices [we know from 5 Venoms, Golden Arm, 36 Chamber, Chinatown Kid, Dirty Ho, Avenging Eagle, the Bruce Lee in Chinese Gods cartoon, etc.] were also heard in Godzilla Vs Gigan (72), Godzilla Vs Megalon (73), Gamera The Super Monster (80)*, and much more recently in Godzilla Vs King Ghidora (90)!
I'd love to contact 2 of them (you know which ones!) and have them record messages for my voice mail! ;)

{*when I first saw this film as a punk kid, I had this image of Ti Lung sitting in Darth Vader's meditation chamber barking orders stuck in my head that has lasted to this day! If you haven't seen this doozy, Its a stock-footage mess that pits Gamera and 3 superwomen (with cameltoes seen thru their tights) against all his old enemies who are controlled by a model of an Imperial Star Destroyer (!) that has the voice dubbed over Ti Lung's character in 10 Tigers Of Kwangtung.}
:rollin

[gfanikf]

Actaully it was Titra handled by good ole Peter Fernedez who did dubbing supervision also on many of the films you listed :) .

[venomchamber]

Yes, I know. I said Titra or Titan.
Peter Fernandez is the man behind Speed Racer too.
Johnny Sokko & His Flying Robot, Ultraman and Ultra 7 original English dubs as well.
Their voices are the ones with stereotypical Japanese accent voices heard in everything from Atragon to The Lost World Of Sinbad.
Example: Godzilla Vs The Smog Monster...
This Americanized version is dubbed by them and has those same imitation Japanese voices, just like Inframan has.
However, the Toho international version of the same film available on DVD as Godzilla Vs Hedorah has the same voices as The Duel Of The Iron Fist!
Titra did not dub Gigan or Megalon, as they were not released by A.I.P. but distributed to grindhouses by Cinema Shares.

I'm talking about the anonymous studio in New Zealand or Austrailia who did their international dubs. The same people who mispronounce Godzilla as "Gudziller" and/or "Godsillia"!
:rollin
Anyone know these people and where are they now?

[Linn1]

Besides, wouldn't his ownership of the US rights to the movie as a whole (at the time) allow him to crush anyone who tried to put out an INFRAMAN video?

the stereo soundtrack. It was wording in a contract from what I understand that allowed the mono version to slip into public domain. And as I said, Brenner had already "crushed" two previous video releases of the film that used the stereo track. It makes little sense he wouldn't do the same with two other release that used a mono soundtrack And Brenner did NOT have anything to do with the Image disc. BTW, Brenner had rights to the film in the US and parts of Europe. As for dubs, I think everyone is being very hopeful, but anything is possible. Having talked to people that have actually been to the Celestial vaults, they have TONS of stuff just setting there, but they don't know where it's at because none of it is cataloged. My guess is they honestly don't know if they have the dub tracks for these films and when they find them, then they make them available.

[gfanikf]

I'm talking about the anonymous studio in New Zealand or Austrailia who did their international dubs. The same people who mispronounce Godzilla as "Gudziller" and/or "Godsillia"!

Ah, I'm sorry I misread you post. Got up too early today. Its cool to meet a person who also knows a bunch about Godzilla and his kaiju and tokusatsu kin.

I can't tell you about the 70s period with any certainty, BUT I can say that the 90s one and most likely 84 and Biollante (with leftover actors from that time period) where done by Omni Productions headed I believe by Rick Thomas, which is still in Hong Kong today (they do the Fortune Star dubs). It may have been the same company, but the Biollante dub (the last good HK Godzilla) dub apparently has some of the same people from the Megalon dub (and apparently some of the later ones but I would have to check).

Venomchamber love your youtube channel!

[Atomic Mystery Monster]

the stereo soundtrack. It was wording in a contract from what I understand that allowed the mono version to slip into public domain.

Wouldn't that mean that only the dub (and not the entire movie) would be public domain? Not counting the music, though; whether it's mono or stereo, music is copyrighted as long as the original music rights didn't fall into the public domain. After all, I'm pretty sure that the Berne Convention and Copyright Restoration Act would return any "PD" version of the visual elements (and any copyrighted music and/or sound effects on the audio track that were present in the original language track) of INFRAMAN to Shaw Brothers.

And as I said, Brenner had already "crushed" two previous video releases of the film that used the stereo track. It makes little sense he wouldn't do the same with two other release that used a mono soundtrack

Yeah, that is very odd. The only other possible explanation I can think of is that Brenner and/or his lawyer weren't smart enough to figure out another "angle" to use against those who used the mono version. Well, that, and butting heads with the rightsholders to the film itself isn't really the best of ideas. Thanks for the information!

BTW, Brenner had rights to the film in the US and parts of Europe.

Hhmm...you just jogged my memory about something else I had heard about Brenner: Apparently, he made some noise about doing his own INFRAMAN DVD to compete with Image's. I can't imagine that such an attempt would end well if the rights to the film itself reverted back to Shaw Brothers...

[venomchamber]

I think this information provided by the Shaws themselves is interesting...
I dug this out from my collection as I have always found it interesting since it states British and American seperately! English is English...or so we thought!
Any comments?

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1282/shaw16mmce7.jpg
(*FYI: This is also posted in the official dub thread as well for easier access.)

Happy Easter! :D

[gfanikf]

VC thanks for that. I remeber seeing it a while ago. I would say its a reference to subtitles. Which in itself for would be cool to see. That said no one thought any Cathay flicks were dubbed and then Colin in Canada has To Kill A Rover dubbed and all the names were changed to IRISH names!?!?!?!?

So who knows.

Thanks for the post. I love all the pics on you MS page.