To the martial artists out there..

[Endsang]

Recently I've included some basic flips and tumbles to my exercise routine. Thing is, it takes a lot of practice (and some guts) to get it right, and I really don't want to hurt myself seriously.

In earler instructed training, I've never really gotten any pointers on fall techniques, and I was wondering if any of you have been trained in such? Like basic principles for reducing a fall, what to do and what not to do etc.

It can look quite easy and painless in movies, but just flipping and landing on my back tends to knock the wind out of me. Also, when landing in a roll, I tend to hit my tailbone, which can really hurt. I've been making a lot of progress in short time though, without pushing my physical limits too far, but I often have to stop the exercise I'm doing in fear of breaking something. Wish I had access to some gymnastic hall for trying some new stuff, as the best thing I currently have is grass (wooden floors in the winter :)).

I happened to stumble across this video, and I can't believe how they do it without snapping their wrists and more. Doesn't look like a very thick mat they're performing on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofa4RV4mKBA&feature=related

Is this all techinque based, or is it also alot about toughening yourself over years of landing on your face? Any thoughts?

[andy338]

I've been studying gymnastics as part of my Wushu training for about 5 years now & believe me its hard! The guys in this video will have been training for 10+ years to get to this level, as you say yourself in the movies it looks easy but remember even with capable actors often they'll use (subtle) wires, trampolines/spring boards as well as discreetly placed pads/mats & clever editing to deliver the polished & effortless looking final product.

It is a combination of technique which has to be learned & gradual conditioning that allows these moves to be performed & as you get stronger your confidence to try harder moves naturally develops. I know its stating the obvious but you really need to train with a gymnastics/trampolining coach if you ever want to learn any of this because without good basics you'll never progress.

The key thing is that it takes time, it took me almost a year to learn a standing back somersault & about 6 months to learn a no handed cartwheel & even with coaches & safety mats I still fall a lot & still hurt myself but thankfully not too seriously. I can't stress enough the need for caution with this & would advise against tumbling in your back garden without qualified instruction, but as I suspect your keen to train anyway then you could practise these on your own as they'll all help with falls/flips.

Handstands (against a wall) - front/back handsprings & cartwheels all pass through the handstand position so its important to do this well. Keep arms & legs straight & point toes to the ceiling, hold for 20 seconds & then try to increase.

Tuck jumps - hands above your head, jump & bring both knees into your chest at the same time, try 10. This is the basis of somersaulting.

Calf raises - hang your heels off a step then rise up onto your toes, try 50. This will help jumping.

v sits - lay on the floor fully extended with arms above head, bring arms & legs up at same time & touch hands to toes, try 20. Abdominal strength is crucial to controlling the body in flips & falls.

Anyway hope this gives you a basic idea of what you need to be doing, good luck & keep practising.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Yeah, I think gymnastics would be your best bet too.

I attended a stunt seminar once, it was pretty fun. Although not that serious, but I learned alot of fall techniques, that have actually keept me from getting hurt a few times.

[Endsang]

Ah, thanks a lot for the pointers!
V sits and calf raises are already a part of my workout, and I've started working on my handstands again, doing pushups with my toes up against the wall. As for the front handsprings, I might also have to work a bit with my lower back flexibility in order to land somewhat upright. As for back handsprings and backflips, I'm a bit more careful, as I would prefer practicing these on a trampoline or a rather big safety mat, which I don't really have any access to. I don't think my foundation is too bad, but like I said I don't really have the optimal environment nor supervision to practice all the moves, so I will probably keep working on the stuff I feel safe with before moving up.
I know it takes a long time to learn, just like martial arts, but it's a nice variation to combine with strenght and flexibility training.

[CrazyFrog]

One tip I can give (though no gymnast myself) is that when landing in a forward roll, use your shoulders to absorb most of the impact and roll slightly diagonally. This reduces pressures on spine and tailbone. For a video demo, try googling David Belle, a parkour expert, and I think he has some training moves demo'd where he lands huge jumps by rolling forward with minimal impact.

[Endsang]

One tip I can give (though no gymnast myself) is that when landing in a forward roll, use your shoulders to absorb most of the impact and roll slightly diagonally. This reduces pressures on spine and tailbone. For a video demo, try googling David Belle, a parkour expert, and I think he has some training moves demo'd where he lands huge jumps by rolling forward with minimal impact.

I think my problem with the rolls is that I don't curl my back enough to gradually reduce the fall, so that I often go more or less directly from shoulders to tailbone. Gonna work on it on a mat from relatively low starting points though, to get it right. Thanks for the tip, I'm gonna check it out. :)

[fabhui]

To be honest and I don't mean it in a nasty way or anything but you might be better asking the question on a gymnastics forum or to gymnasts rather than martial artists.

[Endsang]

To be honest and I don't mean it in a nasty way or anything but you might be better asking the question on a gymnastics forum or to gymnasts rather than martial artists.

Well, I was initially just going to ask if anyone had been instructed in fall techniques and such as a part of their martial arts training, as I was wondering if they still taught that kind of stuff in different schools and styles of martial arts. And acrobatics are sometimes combined with kung fu, like in Wushu. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough. :)

[andy338]

Rather than performing a dive roll try & just practise rolls from a squat position, make them as tight as possible by pulling your knees into your chest. Then try performing a handstand & then lowering yourself into a forward roll. You could use a wall to help with this if you handstand so that your looking at the wall & then roll away (from the wall).

When you can do this with full control ie not collapsing into the roll then you'll be ready to add a few steps & dive into it. Its just a question of getting your body used to this type of movement & then you'll find the moves much cleaner & safer. I know this all sounds basic & you probably want to just learn all the cool somersaults & flips (i know i did) but once you've got good form learning new stuff becomes a lot easier.

Check out this link for loads of good info about gymnastic techniques & training tips.

http://www.coachwayne.com/tumblingtips.html

[andy338]

Well, I was initially just going to ask if anyone had been instructed in fall techniques and such as a part of their martial arts training, as I was wondering if they still taught that kind of stuff in different schools and styles of martial arts. And acrobatics are sometimes combined with kung fu, like in Wushu. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough. :)

Yeah you're right, my introduction to gymnastics was through Wushu (ditan quan - tumbling boxing) similar to the video clip you posted. I trained in Beijing for 3 months & most students performed acrobatics as part of their forms, when I returned to the UK most martial art schools were still just kicking & punching so I joined gymnastics classes as I felt they could coach the more acrobatic moves better. This was about 5 years ago but I see now a lot of martial arts schools have started to include acrobatic "Tricks" into the classes & the flashy gymnastic moves are becoming more popular with martial arts students especially with the likes of Tony Jaa & Cyril Rafaelli(who both have strong gymnastic backgrounds) getting more exposure. I always felt there were strong links between the two disciplines as watching Jackie, Sammo, Yuen Biao etc as a kid i simply wanted to emulate my idols & didn't really think that what I was seeing wasn't martial arts.

[Chinatown Kid]

I studied judo for several months several years ago and the first thing they teach you is how to fall. Now of course it's not like gymnastics, it's basically falling at the correct angle and slapping the mat with your arms/hands to protect yourself from getting hurt when thrown. As far as all the gymnastic type flips and acrobatics you see in MA films, I always thought that was more for show and theatrics/performance than taken from real Martial Arts but I could be wrong. I know Wu Shu has alot of the acrobatics but I thought that was more of a performing art than a fighting style. We do alot of jumping, spinning and aerial kicks in TKD but we never do any gymnastic type flips.

[Biomorph]

Don't EVER attempt any of the backward moves[back handspring,back tuck] without supervision from a coach.It's a good way to get paralyzed.Video instruction is fine for those who already have a background in tumbling/acrobatics-but not for a raw beginner.I'm not trying to discourage you,only motivate you to find a teacher.Under a qualified teacher you will progress in a safe environment,and much quicker.

[Endsang]

As far as all the gymnastic type flips and acrobatics you see in MA films, I always thought that was more for show and theatrics/performance than taken from real Martial Arts but I could be wrong.

No, you're right. I'm not into "tricking" and parkour and such, as I feel it's a bit much showing off. I'm quite fond of wushu though, but I don't feel I have the time to follow up my dedication to the training. It isn't something I would go halfways with. For now I'll just watch and appreciate it. :)
I am however interested and pushing my physical boundaries while I'm still able to, so it's mainly a thing I experiment with when training alone. As for combining it with martial arts, I'd be more interested in rolls and especially fall techniques, which is definately more relevant here.

[andy338]

[QUOTE=Chinatown Kid;55683 As far as all the gymnastic type flips and acrobatics you see in MA films, I always thought that was more for show and theatrics/performance than taken from real Martial Arts but I could be wrong. I know Wu Shu has alot of the acrobatics but I thought that was more of a performing art than a fighting style.

You're absolutely right C.Kid, Wushu is all about performance hence the flashy flips etc & certainly exponents that i've met & train with know its not for "real" fighting. The funny thing is though in training "Tricks" you actually have to develop tremendous power ie for jumps, spins & flips & this I find enhances regular martial arts moves which is why i'd recommend anybody who gets the chance to add it to their training program.

[Tosh]

I studied judo for several months several years ago and the first thing they teach you is how to fall. Now of course it's not like gymnastics, it's basically falling at the correct angle and slapping the mat with your arms/hands to protect yourself from getting hurt when thrown.

Yeah I learned this when I was younger, key is to force the fall out your hands by rolling your your arms as you fall then letting the force out of your hands palms down, try falling strait back and use both hands, then falling at an angle and using one hand.
I use to do flips inspired by watching the Venoms when I was a kid, I use to be able to do a flip over the couch arm and land on the couch(Oh I can hear my mom screaming at me now), of course this is when I was about 60 pounds lighter. I moved this to the pool when I got to a teenager, then trying to impress the girls I was doing backflips off the side when I caught the edge with my chin, that ended my flipping career:o
I've been thinking of trying to do some flips here, it's a great workout, but I'm heading towards 40, and though I'm in great shape(credit my MA training there) for my age, lack of health insurance at the moment keeps me from trying it again.

[Endsang]

I use to do flips inspired by watching the Venoms when I was a kid, I use to be able to do a flip over the couch arm and land on the couch(Oh I can hear my mom screaming at me now), of course this is when I was about 60 pounds lighter. I moved this to the pool when I got to a teenager, then trying to impress the girls I was doing backflips off the side when I caught the edge with my chin, that ended my flipping career:o

Hehe, I broke my wrist and hit my tailbone rather hard after a failed flip on snowboard about 6-7 years ago. That probably ended my snowboarding career, but would be nice to try flipping again for the personal satisfaction of succeding. I have an ex gymnast friend who might provide some spotting. Would probably be the safest, but I'm still working on my flexibility, which has dropped dramatically since I stopped training martial arts.

Main problem is finding the time nowadays. There are periods where I can train almost everyday, and then there are periods where I don't train at all in a month or two because of exams etc. I was really on a roll about half a year ago, then I tore my hamstring and couldn't kick for like 4 weeks, and got set way back in terms of flexibility. I don't think I can do a forward split now without stretching first.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I know Wu Shu has alot of the acrobatics but I thought that was more of a performing art than a fighting style. We do alot of jumping, spinning and aerial kicks in TKD but we never do any gymnastic type flips.

Your partly right, that wushu is mostly for show! But when integrated into another style, it serves as great flexibility training. Which if applied to real combat, helps you to duck, dodge, parry and improve all other evasive moves. The main style I train in is Tibetan white crane kung fu. But my sifu has blended it with wushu (for flexibility) and Tai Chi (for internal purposes) so you'll be a more well rounded exponent, than if you just know your forms and sets!

[Chinatown Kid]

Your partly right, that wushu is mostly for show! But when integrated into another style, it serves as great flexibility training. Which if applied to real combat, helps you to duck, dodge, parry and improve all other evasive moves. The main style I train in is Tibetan white crane kung fu. But my sifu has blended it with wushu (for flexibility) and Tai Chi (for internal purposes) so you'll be a more well rounded exponent, than if you just know your forms and sets!

That's true, I'm sure training in gymnastics and tumbling would be an added benefit in one's overall athleticism and skill and I'm definately not knocking it.:) Most of the people that are really good at it usually started young and I'm afraid I've gotten a little to old(35 soon to be 36) to pick up skills like that, but if a person is willing I'm sure you could gain some skill at any age. I'm really good at kicking and using my feet but I started training in TKD off and on since I was about 19 so those skills are kind of ingrained in me now since I've done it for so long. And good luck to you Endsang in your training, just try to take it slow and not try to get to fancy to fast.