Sonny Chiba -- seriously, what gives?

[ministry88]

Alright! I've had it with this guy! Just WHAT is with all the Sonny Chiba worship? Yeah I know a lot of it has to do with the Quentin Tarantino KILL BILL aftershocks, but still.

I saw THE STREET FIGHTER nearly ten years ago via the uncut New Line VHS and was blown away. I wanted to see more of that brutal, bone-crunching Chiba action. But I shied away as it seemed the general consensus was that his other martial arts films (including the STREET FIGHTER sequels) were quite pathetic compared to this film.

Boy is that true! I just finished watching THE KILLING MACHINE, THE EXECUTIONER and SHOGUN'S NINJA and I kept thinking I was watching a modern Steven Seagal film or something during the action scenes. I will allow Video Watchdog writer John Charles's critique of Chiba's KARATE BULLFIGHTER to some up my complaints, as he put it so succinctly: "Unfortunately, the various battles are almost invariably depicted via tight framing, jerky handheld camera work, and graceless editing (problems plaguing many contemporary action films), working against the kinetic charge one longs for from Chiba's pictures..."

If you ask me, Chiba's action films have NOTHING on the best Lau Kar-leung, Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, or Chang Cheh films for sheer inventiveness, energy, imagination, and cinematic technique. It just saddens me that such an obvious, unique martial arts talent seems to be so regularly wasted in cheap, malodorous exploitation flicks.

So my question is: am I missing out on any hidden Chiba gems? I don't need them as gory and brutal as STREET FIGHTER, but just well shot and well choreographed, with an emphasis on the action. If there aren't any by Chiba, are there any other good Japanese martial arts films out there?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Check out Soul of Chiba. Chiba looks really awesome in that movie, and there's no denying it. But, it's a crappy movie.

Killing Machine is where it's at. If you don't like that, then it's really hard for me to recommend movies to you:p

[KUNG FU BOB]

OH! :eek: Damn! :eek:

Hi.... um, I agree that there aren't any Chiba films that look like they were action choreographed by Lau Kar leung, but I wouldn't say "I kept thinking I was watching a modern Steven Seagal film or something during the action scenes." That's a little too harsh.

I absolutely love THE STREETFIGHTER. But even with that one, I still wished they would have stopped jerking the camera around, filming too tight, and all the stuff that you complained about. He is a very talented actor and an accomplished martial artist, so I want to clearly see Sonny Chiba doing his martial arts thing under optimum conditions. Basically, that NEVER happened in any of his films. I eventually came to accept this- but only after years of fruitless searching for the Holy Grail of "well-filmed Chiba fights". The best action, IMO, is in the 3 STREETFIGHTER films (Definitely worth seeing!), and THE KILLING MACHINE (I'm surprised you didn't like that one). The opening of KARATE FOR LIFE kicks major butt, and the fight scenes in SOUL OF CHIBA are nuts, but the film looks like it cost $50.00 to make. But I would say that if you hated THE KILLING MACHINE (which I think is a cool movie all-around) and THE EXECUTIONER, you just aren't going to dig his other movies that much. :o

BTW- I checked out your other posts... The liner notes for BOXER'S OMEN were great. Well done!

[venoms5]

Japanese martial arts films are an entirely different universe next to the HK choreography. The two shouldn't even be compared as to what is better. Chiba's character, Tsurugi from the STREET FIGHTER films isn't supposed to be graceful nor dazzle you with a dozen maneuvers before a camera edit.

Also the way the director shoots the action, (I'm talking to you Kazuhiko Yamaguchi) has little to do with how good the fights are staged although some of the complaints about "jerky camera work" and "graceless editing" have been levied at Chang Cheh by a number of people.

Tight close ups and more cuts than actual fists and feet thrown generally masks poor choreography or that the individuals cannot grasp the moves but there's enough wide shots in Chiba's movies to showcase his talents in this category. Despite the crazy camera acrobatics in the Oyama trilogy, you thought Chiba trashing the martial arts school students at the outset was badly choreographed?

If you thought the fights were poor in KILLING MACHINE, the Oyama trilogy and EXECUTIONER among others, then maybe you should give up on Chiba movies entirely as you're unlikely to enjoy anything else from JAC.

[KUNG FU BOB]

[QUOTE=venoms5;63329] Despite the crazy camera acrobatics in the Oyama trilogy, you thought Chiba trashing the martial arts school students at the outset was badly choreographed? QUOTE]

Venoms5, I don't think he watched the Oyama trilogy. The way the post read for me, was that he was quoting John Charles' review of KARATE BEAR FIGHTER, but has only seen THE STREETFIGHTER and [QUOTE=ministry88;63310]I just finished watching THE KILLING MACHINE, THE EXECUTIONER and SHOGUN'S NINJA

But it sure sounds like it's just not his thing.:rolleyes:

However, since you're asking about good karate action, I just watched a great new Japanese karate film from Japan called KURO-OBI (Black Belt) that's fantastic in every way. A wonderful, serious movie. I highly recommend it. Shout out to Chinatown Kid for turning me on to this movie!:D

[movie freak]

well then u shouldnt reely watch chiba films if u dunt like killing machine or the mas oyama films but for a karate film check out blackbelt, its effin awesome :D !!!!

[daisho2004]

OK now as far as Sonny Chiba's Ninja period films where he starred as Yagyu Jubie or Hattori Hanzo aka "Shadow Warriors", "Yagyu Conspiracy" you don't get better films than that with his Japanese Action Club. Excellent movies but again you can't compare HK to Japanese movies too totally different movies & styles. Kung Fu is more graceful where Karate is more Brutal and Kill Bill just brought him back into the Main stream and he looked awesome in that movie age wise. So if you want to see him at his best IMO than get his Samurai/Ninja movies. He is the Man!

[Karlos]

There's certainly nothing wrong in not liking Chiba's films, and it sounds to me like his stuff simply ain't your cup of tea - and that's cool!

I do think the problem may be that pretty much all of us are introduced to his work via The Streetfighter, and that may be the pinnacle of his career.

We go looking for more of that calibre and it simply ain't there in most of his stuff that's been released over here.

There's no denying that his type of movie is nothing like the Hong Kong/Shaws style - chalk and cheese! :D

[SlothStyleKungFu]

Japanese martial arts films are an entirely different universe next to the HK choreography. The two shouldn't even be compared as to what is better.....

What he said.

Stylistically, Japan approached martial action much differently, often more conventional if you will, than the intricate or downright gonzo stuff that HK, Filipino, Taiwaiese, etc cinema delivered. It is a matter of having a different stylistic sensibility and production environment.

Its also like comparing American Ninja to Chinese Super Ninjas.

[kungfusamurai]

I think most people have hit the nail on the head with the comparison between Chiba films and those of Lau Kar Leung. Well, besides the fact that they were done in completely different styles, you're comparing the work of a director, versus the work of an actor. Chiba didn't have control over the directing of his films, hence the varying styles of cinematography from film to film. I don't think it was until the late 70s when his Japan Action Club team really became solidified, that his influences could be felt in the movies. Ironically, those films, for me, were weaker and not as pleasing to watch as his earlier films, mainly because he shifted from pure karate-based action to sword play films. Not to say that I don't like japanese sword play, I just don't think the chambara films post-1975 were as well made as the ones from the late 50s through to the early 70s.

I think the best crossover action, if you're looking for HK style acrobatics and fighting, is found in the Kage No Gundan TV series, AKA Shadow Warriors, where he plays Hattori Hanzo. Lots of flips and swordplay, not much of the karate stuff.

The best film that showcased his karate, via somewhat HK style choreography, is Soul of Chiba. The other films you listed, Killing Machine, The Executioner, Street Fighter, as well as Karate Warriors, Return of The Street Fighter, and Karate Bullfighter, are probably the best examples of the japanese choreography style. I think that style was based on the sword play films, where you have bursts of action where multiple opponents are taken down in one or two strokes, not the "ballet dancing" 10 minute fight scenes one sees in chinese films.

Chiba's films all are disappointing, for me, in only one way - his final opponents were always vastly inferior on screen martial artists. He shone best when he was taking down multiple opponents, but the endings always pitted him against some veteran Japanese actor with minimal or no fighting skills. Even the actor who he confronts at the end of Streetfighter, who he is pitted against in various films, looks interesting initially, but when the actual fighting begins, it's very disappointing - in almost EVERY movie.

Okay, enough ranting, I'll just let these Youtube clips speak for themselves, my favourite examples of Chiba kicking a$$:

-from Soul of Chiba

XC-U1JL4Y7w

-from Karate Warriors

84bqIE9jvmU

-and then here's a compilation of fights someone put together:

uAEABHMiycU

KFS

[daisho2004]

See one thing I liked about S.C. was his unorthodox style of fighting it was Brutal and right to the point no messing around.
I remember reading an interview with S.C. where he had said that He & Bruce Lee were suppose to do a film together that would've been one awesome movie.

[ministry88]

Wow, I leave this thread for a day and look at all the responses! Thanks everyone!

YES, good point about the critical differences in both cinematic AND martial art styles in HK/Japanese films. I've actually known this fact for awhile but neglected to mention it in my op. I actually learned this when watching THE STREET FIGHTER with my friend years and years ago. He was just starting to take Kyokushin and was excited that Chiba WAS the real thing and pointed out to me how very different Japanese karate is to Kung Fu (basically, Karate is all about brutal efficiency and killing blows, whereas Kung Fu is more balletic and informed by its Peking Opera influence).

And yes, I really DO enjoy the different choreography/cinematography, but only as far as THE STREET FIGHTER. The long(er) takes (than HK films, that is), more static shots (not as much dollying and zooms as HK), sharper editing (just seems to have more "punch" to accentuate the brutality of Chiba's karate) all succinctly enforce the more staccato and exacting nature of karate. BUT I just didn't feel these aforementioned aesthetic details gelled anywhere near as well in Chiba's other films as they did in THE STREET FIGHTER. In THE STREET FIGHTER, Chiba is given such a pleasingly wide berth to just do his thing without the needlessly complex plotting of THE EXECUTIONER or the contrived, formulaic plotting of THE KILLING MACHINE (sorry guys, I know there are a lot of fans of that film on this board -- Just my opinion), and the spasms of outrageous violence just assure its place in the grindhouse pantheon. Plus, Chiba is just so much more appealing as a nihilistic badass:D

**To Kung Fu Bob: Hey, thanks for the compliments on my liners for BOXER'S OMEN! Always appreciated. And thanks for the recommendation of KURO-OBI, I'll try to track that one down! And you're also right that I haven't seen the OYAMA trilogy, I was just using Charles's quote to sum up my complaints about the Chiba films I've seen so far.

[Alex]

ministry88, if you're still willing to give Chiba a chance check out Karate Warriors (karate), Samurai Reincanation (mostly swordplay) or Shogun's Shadow (a mix of japanese swordplay and ninja action with Chinese kung-fu elements) - some of the staging of the action in these may be a bit more to your taste

[daisho2004]

Alex: "Samurai Reincarnation" & "Shogun's Shadow" are 2 of my favorite Chiba movies, more so "Samurai Reincarnation" because he has the Sword fight with WAKAYAMA,Tomisaburo who is the Man!

[Chinatown Kid]

I like and appreciate the direct, brutal and more simpler nature to Chiba's style of Japanese screen fighting and think it's a nice contrast to the HK/Chinese style. It's nice to have a variety to spice things up. I liked Chiba in Karate Warriors and the Mas Oyama trilogy(I think this trilogy shows off Chiba's best Karate technique), I have Soul of Chiba coming in a trade and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[Alex]

Alex: "Samurai Reincarnation" & "Shogun's Shadow" are 2 of my favorite Chiba movies, more so "Samurai Reincarnation" because he has the Sword fight with WAKAYAMA,Tomisaburo who is the Man!

agreed fully, that fight is one of my favorite moments in all of the martial arts movies i own

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I like and appreciate the direct, brutal and more simpler nature to Chiba's style of Japanese screen fighting and think it's a nice contrast to the HK/Chinese style. It's nice to have a variety to spice things up.

I totally agree.....! I also think that many of the Japanese movies had a coolness to them, that many of the HK movies didn't! Now, don't get me wrong, im all about the HK style. But after watching Dean Shek stroking his hairy mole for the ten thousanth time, or Meng Hoi falling in horse manure, over and over again, I think it is refreshing to watch something as cool looking as this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua-rB3KXcms

[jiujitsu77]

sonny chiba is seriously a bad mofo. i know i am simply making a statement made by many already before me, but i feel if i did not make one personally i would'nt be doing my job as an ma movie enthusiasterism.

in real life the man can handle his own. that is alot more that can be said for most screen fighters.

[daisho2004]

Chiba really shines when playing samurai roles
and with a Sword in his hands. His probably the best cinema swordsfighter
of all time, right up there with Wakayama, Tomisburo. And to see him in action,
check out the new video clips for YAGYU ABARE TABI and SHADOW
WARRIORS IV TV-series over at www.kurotokagi.com that will show some of his incredible skills.

[5 Element Boxer]

Kurata > Chiba, in my humble opinion. I like some of Chiba's work. He is definitely a gifted actor (terrific in the Shadow Warriors series & Kage no Gundan: Hattori Hanzo movie) and martial artist, though.

[oldeschool17]

SHOGUN'S NINJA
Thats the problem right there. Ive been semi-lynched for saying this but i thought that was a garbage film. Shogun's Ninja is not a good indicator of Chiba's greatness.

[daisho2004]

Shogun's Ninja: End Fight Scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMIofbpEUGc

[daisho2004]

Now if you want to show Sonny Chiba's greatness you have to watch the "Yagyu Conspiracy" TV Series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsEBF4uJRbQ

[oldeschool17]

Shogun's Ninja: End Fight Scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMIofbpEUGc
And a nice 3's Company saxophone to send Chiba off into dreamland. XD

*agreed on Yagyu Conspiracy. Also agree with Shadow Warrirors/Kage No Gundan

[venoms5]

Chiba isn't even the main star of SHOGUN'S NINJA. TIME SLIP has some choice Chiba action including an impressive horse stunt where he picks up a bow and arrow separately while riding a horse to take out some ninjas. There's also a brief fight with Chiba against Hiroyuki Sanada. Mostly gun action from Chiba, though. I can't think of any movie where the man didn't look impressive regardless of the film itself or how much screen time he has.

[kungfusamurai]

And yes, I really DO enjoy the different choreography/cinematography, but only as far as THE STREET FIGHTER. The long(er) takes (than HK films, that is), more static shots (not as much dollying and zooms as HK), sharper editing (just seems to have more "punch" to accentuate the brutality of Chiba's karate) all succinctly enforce the more staccato and exacting nature of karate. BUT I just didn't feel these aforementioned aesthetic details gelled anywhere near as well in Chiba's other films as they did in THE STREET FIGHTER. In THE STREET FIGHTER, Chiba is given such a pleasingly wide berth to just do his thing without the needlessly complex plotting of THE EXECUTIONER or the contrived, formulaic plotting of THE KILLING MACHINE (sorry guys, I know there are a lot of fans of that film on this board -- Just my opinion), and the spasms of outrageous violence just assure its place in the grindhouse pantheon. Plus, Chiba is just so much more appealing as a nihilistic badass:D

You won't get any argument from me on the quality of the films. I think Chiba's films were purely exploitive exercises. I think that might be why he moved off of the empty-handed combat flicks by the late 70s and hasn't been back since. I wish he could have revisited the karate flick in the 80s, maybe rekindled interest in it, but he seemed more interested in swinging a sword.

I just watch his films for the fight scenes. Many I have yet to actually sit through from beginning to end. The Executioner - I must have watched that a dozen times just for the fight scenes before actually watching the whole thing. A few I enjoyed all the way through, including Killing Machine, Karate Bullfighter, Karate Warriors and Return of The Streetfighter. I can't remember if I sat through the entire Dragon Princess film (the widescreen, I couldn't watch the old fullscreen versions). My feeling about most of his karate films were that they were done in a bit of a campy angle. They weren't meant to be serious works of art. Just mindless entertainment. They certainly were a far cry from the socially relevant, well written and well acted films of the chambara genre. But that was the trend the whole Japanese film industry seemed to be going. I don't think they ever returned to the quality of the 50s/60s/early 70s, except maybe in TV series such as Kage No Gundan.

KFS

[The Dragon]

Anytime an onscreen fighter can deliver his lines, and his action with the same voracious, venomous, vivacious vitality, as only Chiba can, he's a STAR!
and Sonny Chiba, with great vehemence, is most certainly, that.
I did watch V For Vendetta.
:)

[Chinatown Kid]

I just saw Soul of Chiba recently and thought Sonny did a great job in his fight scenes, really fast with his hands and feet but they were just to few and far between in this flick. To bad the rest of the film was really bad and Tadasha Yama****a really looked stiff in his fights. Bolo looked ridiculous in a top hat and couldn't speak because his tongue had supposedly been cut out. Sue Shinomi really looked cute in this flick, she was a babe!

[kungpowmaster]

I don't like Tarantino and Kill Bill stuff.
But I love classic era Sonny Chiba.
I have collected a bunch of his films on DVD.
The Street Fighter films, that Samurai Collection, Shogun Collection, Lethal Chiba, Action Pack, the 2 Grindhouse Double Feature Films, the Sister Street Fighter set, she's a babe!

But, Chiba is awesome, and while some of his movies are better than others, he usually delivers the action.

I believe he'd have beaten Bruce Lee in a match.

Chosen One

[Tosh]

And a nice 3's Company saxophone to send Chiba off into dreamland. XD



XD, I hated the music in this movie.

[shaolin drunkard]

I am not sure what to think of streetfighter1.Chibas character is so disgusting but there is lot action and gore in movie so I guess it`s worth seeing.Ninja wars/shoguns ninja is least are great for me.Bullet Train I hope it`s good going to watch it soon.

[prometheus126]

bullit trains decent but I have to agree that sonnys always looked the best when holding a katana rather then bare fists. watched legend of the eight samurais when I was a kid and turned me into a chambara fan, let alone a sonny/kinji fan

[bamboo spear]

He's made some bad ones, like Legend of the Eight Samurai or the time-travelling Samurai one, or even Golgo, which I didn't care for, but anyone with even a mild interest in old Japan, Samurai or Ninja should love Shogun's Ninja and Ninja Wars. The Street Fighters went downhill after the first one, but it's also a martial arts classic, as was the Oyama Trilogy and Killing Machine. Man, I wish I could go back to late 60's-early 70's Tokyo. It was such as awesome place.

[shaolin drunkard]

^fights in Streetfighters Last Revenge are so poorly done I am 99,999% sure I could make better myself.

[bamboo spear]

Yeah, I liked his duel with the "cosmic wave" guy, but apart from that, I don't remember anything about the film except from the Mexican-laser-strongman, which was laughably bad and very strange.

[The Running Man]

Japanese martial arts films are an entirely different universe next to the HK choreography. The two shouldn't even be compared as to what is better.

I beg to differ. It's like eating a gourmet meal and then eating some fast food and then being told you aren't allowed to say which one is better. Just like no one would argue that Japanese animation is better than Hong Kong animation, Hong Kong action is better than Japanese action, especially at that period in time.

I also would like to point out that tragedy that is Hiroyuki Sanda. Never looked better than he did in Ninja In The Dragon's Den and Royal Warriors. Amazing in those action scenes and he handled the demand of Hong Kong action like a pro. What a shame he only did those two Hong Kong films.

Would've been interesting to see how Sonny China would've fared in an action film in Hong Kong during his heyday.

[venoms5]

Hong Kong action is better than Japanese action, especially at that period in time.


No, that is your opinion. Anybody can prefer one over the other but to say Japanese martial arts choreography is bad is a ridiculous statement. Not to mention that it was Hong Kong that imported a lot of talent from Japan to improve their cinema.

[The Running Man]

No, that is your opinion.

I think it's quite obvious it is. And if you think it's good then that is your opinion.

It wasn't until recently that it's changed but before Japanese action was pretty damn lousy in general. This is excluding things like chambara cinema of course. And those Japanese superheros too cause it's fun. :D

to say Japanese martial arts choreography is bad is a ridiculous statement.

No it isn't. It's my opinion. ;)

Not to mention that it was Hong Kong that imported a lot of talent from Japan to improve their cinema.

That was for better film equipment and the people who knew how to manage it better. That also included cinematography. But that had nothing to do with action film making.

[venoms5]

That was for better film equipment and the people who knew how to manage it better. That also included cinematography. But that had nothing to do with action film making.

It wasn't only that. It did involve the action design as well. You can't tell me that you don't see similarities in Japanese samurai pictures and the swordplay films post 1967. Not to mention the Karate-like choreography of the basher films. It wasn't until later into the 70's the HK style of choreo came into its own which I'm sure is the type you're referring to. You know, the dancing about for five minutes before anybody gets hit.

[Tosh]

No it isn't. It's my opinion. ;)





It's also your opinion that shitty wire work from the 90's is great:l

[The Running Man]

And it's your opinion that it's shitty. :)

[Atherton]

I find it interesting how both Hong Kong and Japanese fight choreography has evolved over the years. There's many genres and sub-genres within each respective countries films. I personally don't get the most out of it by comparing the two countries styles against each other. Depending on what mood I am in I may tend to prefer one country over the other.

But although there may be similarities, they're like two different beasts and I think it comes down to the individual martial arts styles used in each country. Obviously Karate and Wushu are different, Samurai Sword techniques are different than Chinese Sword techniques and that's gonna be reflected in each countries respective films. Although certain Hong Kong fight/filmstyles are very detailed and very advanced. Some Japanese fight/film styles have a very different dramatic tone and rhythm that are in no way shape or form trying to convey what a Hong Kong "shapes" or wuxia film is trying to do. And vice versa of course.

I don't know. I mean me personally if I feel like a basher, I'll thrown in a basher. If I feel like a chambara, I'll throw in a chambara. Feel like shapes, I'll thrown in a shapes tape. You know what I mean? It's all there for us to appreciate and watch if we want.

[Yakuza954]

HK action IS better than Japanese action, particularly in the time period being talked about (the early 70's to now). All you have to look at is the number of martial arts films being made by each respective country to see why. While I do understand there are some rare Japanese martial arts films yet to really be seen outside of Japan, Japan's martial arts movie output was very, very, small compared to China's. With this large difference in output, it only makes sense that Japanese action choreography started to become stagnant while HK's continued to evolve.

Yes, I understand there are old Japanese movies with great action; in 1965, HK could only dream of filming a realistic fight scene like the one in Red Beard (it would still be difficult today), but Japan's choreography regressed after that while HK's moved forward. There are still other examples of great Japanese choreography made later on, like the Lone Wolf and Cub Series and Kuro-Obi, but these movies are the exception, not the rule. For every Kuro-Obi movie you have ten Machine Girls--movies with Japanese choreography that try to imitate the live action comic-book style and fail miserably. Why do you think that is? The Japanese crews simply do not have the same experience as the Chinese crews who honed their skills working on dozens of Shaw Brothers or Golden Harvest films in the 70's and 80's. They also do not come from the same beneficial Peking Opera or martial arts backgrounds. That's the main reason why Sonny Chiba was the best in Japan during his time -- he was a real martial artist who worked with his own professionally trained stunt team and specialized in doing action movies. Does that ring a bell? It's no coincidence that the best Chinese actors/choreographers -- the Jackie Chans, Yuen Woo Pings, and Lau Kar Leungs-- also worked much the same way. Chiba however, was an enigma during his time and for all their positives, his films also ran into some of the same pitfalls that have so often plagued Japanese action films, whether its the bad shaky camera angles, or subpar villains.

Chiba's choreography would reach its peak in the mid 70's, after which he would turn to primarily chambara television work. At the same time in HK, there were still a lot of great action movies about to be made. I think Hiroyuki Sanada is the best example in showing the difference in action choreography between the two countries. Sanada's two best fighting performances were in two Chinese films, not Japanese films, and those two films were the ones that used his physical abilities to its highest. His Japanese films feel subdued in comparison, instead showing off his dramatic acting abilities better than they would have been in HK. For reasons like this, Japanese martial artists like Kurata and Oshima would spend most of their careers in China, and not in Japan. After the mid 80's, Sanada would then drop his action career, became something of an teen idol, and focused instead on singing and drama/romance work. In Japan, this was acceptable as martial arts films were regularly second fiddle to other genres; martial arts only appearing as short breaks in the action during yakuza films or samurai period dramas. In HK however, martial arts films with lots of martial arts action were topping the box office and action choreography still had a platform on which to be practiced and improved upon.