Terrible Kickers but good upper body skills?

[Kwok Choi]

Ok we've had fun with the super kickers so what about the opposite.Not that they are bad at all but just that their foot work is below par/sucks.We are not disrespecting any of our heroes/heroines here but rather just stating the facts.So speak your mind.I'll go for:
Chi Kuan Chun
Chen Kuan Tai
David Chiang
Wang Yu
Yueh Hua
Chen Hui Min?
Lily Ho......etc

[venomsfreak]

I always found that Lo Mang seemed to not do alot of kicking when he fought. His upper body was his main focus, and rightly so. He would kick once in awhile but his kicks were definetly not as strong as his arms.

[Endsang]

I always found that Lo Mang seemed to not do alot of kicking when he fought. His upper body was his main focus, and rightly so. He would kick once in awhile but his kicks were definetly not as strong as his arms.

I strongly disagree. You're right he doesn't kick alot, but he's got both power and flexibility, and he kicks with a purpose instead of throwing his legs around blindly at the opponent, which some "superkickers" tend to do. I've even seen him do decent roundhouse kicks. Think he did one quite well in Killer Army. He even goes up leg to leg against Tony Jam in Daredevils! :D

Same with Chi Kuan Chun, who doesn't kick alot, but is by no means a terrible kicker in my opinion. You could say the same about Gordon Liu I guess, but he compensates with excellent footwork. I can partly agree with Chen Kuan Tai, as his kicks doesn't seem to have a lot of power, but they look quite elegant and he is fairly flexible.

[venoms5]

Chen Hui Min was a kickboxer years back and retired undefeated if I remember correctly. He displayed some fine legwork in FIVE ELEMENT NINJAS. Lo Mang could kick when the need arose only his style is predominantly upper body. He also shows his flexibility in 5EN during his big denouement when he performs a jumping split kick as well as other, albeit basic kicks up to that point. As you know, real fighters sometimes don't always make the best 'movie' fighters.

[venoms5]

I strongly disagree. You're right he doesn't kick alot, but he's got both power and flexibility, and he kicks with a purpose instead of throwing his legs around blindly at the opponent, which some "superkickers" tend to do. I've even seen him do decent roundhouse kicks. Think he did one quite well in Killer Army. He even goes up leg to leg against Tony Jam in Daredevils! :D



Yes, in the fight at the end with the spearmen and Hsu Wei-chin, the kicker. I often wondered if Lo's rapid fire succession of punches he unloads on at least one unlucky soul in many of his films was inspired by a similar series of punches seen from Bruce Lee.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Has Chen Sing been mentioned? I think he has to be the definition of this thread. Great upperbody, but not too good of a kicker. He's not a bad kicker, just not up to par with most kung fu stars. And also James Nam. Good fighter, but there's nothing pretty about his kicks. And I don't include Chen Kuan Tai in this thread. He's not a superkicker or anything, but I always liked his kicking skills a lot.

[Chinatown Kid]

There are alot of KF stars that are good kickers it's just that they are not most of the time in the same class as superkickers(who usually come from a Korean style background but not always) who have usually based their carear off of skill using the legs. Jimmy Wang Yu and Lo Lieh are two guys that come to mind as not too skilled at kicking and look stiff when doing so and as Morgoth said Chen Sing is another, but there hands are pretty fast. Chan Wei Man's kicks don't look that great on screen either. Wang Lung Wei is great using his hands and looks powerful on screen but I can tell kicking is not his thing, that fight finale in Martial Club is a good example because he was doubled for the high kicks in that scene.

[venoms5]

Chan Wei Man's kicks don't look that great on screen either.

I thought his kicks were impressive in 5EN. Lo Lieh wasn't even a real martial artist but just learned moves on set.

[Chinatown Kid]

Yes V I had forgot about Super Ninja's, his kicks did look good in that. In The Club and Ninja Holocoust they looked like crap though. I've no doubt his kicks are powerful with him being a kickboxer it's just most screen performances I've seen him in he didn't look that great with his legs. Yes Lo Lieh was not a real martial artist and neither was David Chiang but they looked alot better faking it with their hands than their feet lol. I believe faking hand techniues is easier than trying to fake kicking techniques because if you haven't trained extensively it's gonna show. Just my opinion of course. :nerd:

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Chan Wai Man I can understand why he's on this thread, even though I think he's a great kicker. But Wang Lung Wei I think is an awesome kicker. I see a lot of speed and power in his kicks.

[venoms5]

In The Club and Ninja Holocoust they looked like crap though. I've no doubt his kicks are powerful with him being a kickboxer it's just most screen performances I've seen him in he didn't look that great with his legs.

Yeah, in NINJA STRIKE aka NINJA HOLOCAUST (insert other aka here) the opening credits even show some footage of a kickboxing match with him but nothing really is shown in it. I can't even remember him doing much kicks in that movie as it seemed like two different films in one. I remember there being a lot of sex and nudity though XD. Then again, that goes back to how sometimes real fighters don't come off as good movie fighters and I agree with you on the last statement of your above post. Chu Ko and Ricky Cheng were just able to create elaborate choreo for Chen Hui Min (and the others) in 5EN and make him look awesome at the same time.

[venoms5]

But Wang Lung Wei I think is an awesome kicker. I see a lot of speed and power in his kicks.

Undercranking can work wonders in these areas. Also, Wang trained in wrestling, yes? Shui Chao, Chinese wrestling style I think. Somebody else may be able to confirm this.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

He looks like a kickboxer to me. And hav you guys seen Flash Future Kung Fu? I don't remember any undercranking, just awesome kicking from WLW.

[Chinatown Kid]

Yeah that Ninja Holocaust was one of those Godfrey Ho paste jobs and if not it looked like one lol. That Jerry Trimble guy is a great example of a great real fighter not making a great screenfighter, his kickboxing bouts looked better than his choreographed fights! I don't know if Wang trained in wrestling but that was his style in the Four Assassins, I've seen him do some kickboxing in films but don't know if he trained extensively in that either. I agree morgoth Wang kicks decent for someone that kicking's not his forte, but he doesn't compare to people like Sun Chien, Cas Wong or TTL. I guess maybe I shouldn't have put his name in this thread because he's not really a bad kicker, just not exceptional like the superkickers. :)

[venoms5]

Here is an excerpt from a thread here...

You began to study gung fu as a teen. Which styles have you studied and which ones do you prefer?
When I was 15 or 16 , I started to learn martial arts. At first, I learned some kung fu styles such as Hong Quan but soon I found that these Chinese kung fu styles were not the type of martial art I was looking for and, under the influence of OO7 movies, I decided to learn Karate. I felt that Karate is more practical than kung fu, it's simple but powerful.

Afterward, when I first knew about Muay Thai, I was overwhelmed by its powerful skills. I think it is the most powerful martial art of the world. (Even the late Bruce Lee acknowledged that Muay Thai is the best bare-handed fighting style among all.)

Of course, kung fu has various styles and the motions are as beautiful as dancing. You can say that it's a kind of art like Ballet, so kung fu is suitable for movies. If you often practice kung fu you will get a healthy body, but movie is movie. It would be dangerous and fatal if you expect you can imitate and use kung fu in the real fight as you see in the movie. (Of course, this is only my opinion.)

and here is the thread itself...

http://kungfucinema.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6136

[Chinatown Kid]

Thanks V, I remember reading that thread now. He know doubt has powerful looking techniques like a Karate fighter or kickboxer, I just knew he probably didn't study a predominately kicking style like the Korean arts. Now you don't have to study the Korean arts to be a good kicker as alot of chinese styles have great low kicks and Karate and Savate has great kicking as well. He is right about Muay Thai, it has some of the hardest and most punishing kicks ever, and watch out for those knees and elbows!

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Yeah Wang Lung Wei isn't one of the best of the best kickers, like Hwang or Bruce Leung, but just keep in mind what the title of this thread is ;)

[Jstn]

Not sure about having poor kicking skills, but Leung Kar Yan has some great upper body skills, some good endurance during fight scenes. I always bring him up; he's just one of my favs.

[The Dragon]

Sonny Chiba.
Ti Lung.
Chen Sing.
Lee Hoi San
Pops... (Lau Kar Liang) and his brother.
Don Wong.
Chang Yi.
Carter Wong.
Sammo.
Chen Kuai Tai.
Meng Fei.
Lo Lieh.
...................?

[teako170]

What about Bolo?
Upper strength this man has got. But how does his kicking fare?

[KUNG FU BOB]

Sonny Chiba.
Ti Lung.

Yeah, the Ti Lung thing is weird, because I thought he had trained extensively in Tae Kwon Do. Is that true? I just saw him in two different Ti Lung movies and in both I thought his kicks looked awkward. He has long legs, sO it would seem to be a given he'd look extra cool throwing some feet of fury around... but no. He often bends his leg strangely as he retracts from a strike, and seems of-balance. He's still cool as hell though!

I think Sonny's kicks are more basic than other fighters, but they always look powerful.

[venom10463]

What about Wong Tao? I know he's from a tkd backround, but his kicks never did it for me. I prefer him using his upper body more than his lower.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Wong Tao didn't kick enough IMO. His jumping kicks always gets me exited. He had some serious hops.

[Kwok Choi]

I think Bolo is a good kicker he doesn't have signature kicks but when he uses his legs he uses them quite well.
Ti Lung can Kick;not often but he has powerhouse kicks.
Sonny Chiba's "Karate Kicks" are good in some movies but not Street Fighter (part 1).
I was gonna mention Leung Kar Yan earlier but the thing is he is an excellent imitator.He has some terrific " Jump Kicks " that's why I ruled him out.

[venomsfreak]

Wong Tao didn't kick enough IMO. His jumping kicks always gets me exited. He had some serious hops.


Exactly.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I love Chan Wai Man, and I wouldn't wanna be at the recieving end of his wrath in real life, well... twenty years ago. But you're right, he's not a strong screen kicker! but a tough street fighter none the less.

Chan Wai Man in the ring...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg0wfyACzCQ

[Tosh]

I think Lo Mang had good kicking abilities, but like Don Wong didn't get to kick enough in film or was outshined by better kickers, but I think half the people mentioned here are better kickers then what they're getting credit for imo.

[Endsang]

I think Lo Mang had good kicking abilities, but like Don Wong didn't get to kick enough in film or was outshined by better kickers, but I think half the people mentioned here are better kickers then what they're getting credit for imo.

That's the case with Wong Tao as well. He is mainly known through Secret Rivals where his fist would be paired with John Liu's legs. It's quite clear he wasn't allowed to kick with his best ability since they wouldn't be such a complementary duo. Same case when he was paired with Tan Tao Liang in The Hot, The Cool and The Vicious. Wong Tao is/was definately a good kicker though.

[Bus]

bolo..he showed some nice kicks in 10 mag killers

[peringaten]

Jackie Conn owns this thread.

[Chinatown Kid]

Who is Jackie Conn peri? Lu Feng looked great with his Chen Kang palm going up against Lo Mang's Mantis but his kicks never looked to hot from what I remember, Chiang Sheng's acrobatics and weapons where always great but his kicks didn't look like much either. Kuo Chui was the only Venom I saw match Sun Chien kick for kick in the film KWTGA. Wei Pei looked great with the snake style in 5 Venoms but he never had much kicking skill either.

[Kwok Choi]

Peringaten could possibly be refering to Jackie Chan?

[Endsang]

Lu Feng looked great with his Chen Kang palm going up against Lo Mang's Mantis but his kicks never looked to hot from what I remember.

It's actually a bit interesting since, if I remember correctly, he was one of the leg experts to go up against Tino Wong's boxing in Secret Rivals 2. Hard to spot him though.

Lu Feng's character in Brave Archer 2 was also supposed to be a master kicker, but he doesn't really display it there.

[peringaten]

No, no, not Jackie Chan, Jackie Conn...

The dude who appears 2mins 33secs into this clip, (billed Jack Con):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO_hDO6R0Z8

[Kwok Choi]

Peringaten you are very funny.I get the joke:D

[FrankBolte]

Pops... (Lau Kar Liang) and his brother.

totally disagree..if u know about martial arts u know u are wrong..
both are masters in Hung Kuen and in hung kuen we have the no shadow kick (and NO its not the bull**** from the jet li movies where u fly through the air and kick a hundred times)..the kicks in hung kuen may notlook as fancey as in TKD but to put pops or his brother here is just wrong,they are excellent kickersXD

[clfnole]

That is kind of the problem with this thread, most of the people named like the Lau's, Law Mong (Lo Meng), Chi Kwan Chun, Ti Lung are all southern stylists and if you know anything about southern kung fu styles (CLF, hung gar, hung fut, wing chun, etc...), the kicking is more about practicality rather than flash. Yeah we might have a shun fung toi (tornado kick) in a set but most kicks are to the mid section and lower gate and thus wouldn't really translate well to the screen.

Effective kicking and looking good when kicking are 2 different things. But in terms of movie presence the ones mentioned definately look better with their arms vs. their legs.

Peace.

[Kwok Choi]

OK we mean flash screen kickers or kickers who look good when using kicks on screen and yes Liu Chia Liang,Liu Chia Hui,Hsiao Ho can kick well in this regard even Wong Yue and Lo Mang.Otherwise they would have been on the post that started the thread but as much as I admire and respect Chi Kuan Chun,his screen kicks suck big time regardless of fighting style.

[Chinatown Kid]

That is kind of the problem with this thread, most of the people named like the Lau's, Law Mong (Lo Meng), Chi Kwan Chun, Ti Lung are all southern stylists and if you know anything about southern kung fu styles (CLF, hung gar, hung fut, wing chun, etc...), the kicking is more about practicality rather than flash. Yeah we might have a shun fung toi (tornado kick) in a set but most kicks are to the mid section and lower gate and thus wouldn't really translate well to the screen.

Effective kicking and looking good when kicking are 2 different things. But in terms of movie presence the ones mentioned definately look better with their arms vs. their legs.

Peace.

That's true Nole and I agree that Kung fu stylists have some great and effective kicks as well. But just because some of the kicks in TKD look fancy doesn't mean they can't be effective when done by a skilled practitioner.;)

[The Dragon]

totally disagree..if u know about martial arts u know u are wrong..
both are masters in Hung Kuen and in hung kuen we have the no shadow kick (and NO its not the bull**** from the jet li movies where u fly through the air and kick a hundred times)..the kicks in hung kuen may notlook as fancey as in TKD but to put pops or his brother here is just wrong,they are excellent kickersXD

Never doubted their mastery. On screen, their kicks have NOT looked as good as some of the flashier leg fighters. that's all. Don't have a baby. People are entitled to opinions right? I mean there are countless other performers who do not match their skill in REAL MA.

[clfnole]

I agree all of the aforementioned are definately not "flashy" kickers by any stretch but I don't think they could be considered "terrible" either. I'll be the first to admit kicking from southern stylists is a bit boring, that being said while their kicks don't draw your attention they don't look bad either just more simple.

P.S. Chinatown Kid - never said some flashy kicks can't be useful, but I have seen countless people attempt kicks they have no business trying.

[Chinatown Kid]

I'm sorry man, I thought when you said there is difference between effective kicking and kicking that looks good you meant a kick that looks good couldn't be effective, my bad.:nerd: And your right people that can't make high or spinning kicks work shouldn't be trying them in a fight, alot of times someone that has been practicing kicks for years can pop you in the head so quick that you don't know what hit you though. But of course in the street or self defense it's best to keep it simple and go for a less risky low kick, even though TKD is known for it's high kicks we can also kick low just as easy. Kung Fu has some awesome and quick kicks in it I know, when I studied Wing Chun I learned some killer kicks to the knee and inside of the thigh. Choy Lay Fut looks like one hell of a powerful KF style as well altough I've never had any experience in it.:)

[gravedigger666]

Bruce Lee:S

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Bruce Lee:S

That's retarded dude! Im no BL fan by any means, but there is no way that he belongs on a list of terrible kickers!

[gravedigger666]

That's retarded dude! Im no BL fan by any means, but there is no way that he belongs on a list of terrible kickers!
you are right....he did not use much legs but when did was very swift and accurate

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

:o:mad::cry::(

[The Dragon]

Bruce Lee:S

Bruce Lee was the FIRST to introduce the "Three Kick Combination" onscreen: sidekick, crescent kick, roundhouse kick, in a manner which flowed with power, speed, and no cut-a-ways; Right leg, Left leg, Right leg. All performed with accuracy, and while actually "touching" the stuntmen, never injuring them. (In fact, he insisted on touching, anything else was a miss... This included kicks to the face.)
See;The Big Boss.
Many who attempted this after Lee, were injured and hurt their fellow co-stars, see Wong Ing Sik, Wong Cheng Li, and a few others. Some didn't want to control their kicks because that can lead to muscle sprains and pulls. Therefore allowing full and partial impact in some cases so the opponent would suffer and not the actor taking action.

[gravedigger666]

When I was kid did read (quite funny I think) story about Bruce Lee.Producer of some tv-serie interviewed Bruce to casting but he was not convinced about Lee Jun Fan.Bruce started to lose his coolness and there was lamp at ceiling very high.He jumpkicked it to pieces and it did not take long time before contract was signed:D

[Kwok Choi]

..............or is it a scene from "Marlowe" sans the contract issue ;)

[noodle]

i think gordon liu is not a great kicker but has oustanding upper body skills.
carter wong is not known for his kicking either.

my criteria for being a good kicker is to be able to deliver a high sidekick without having to bend so low your hands touch the floor...anybody can do that....i think the greatest kicker of all time has to be chuck norris.

[Endsang]

my criteria for being a good kicker is to be able to deliver a high sidekick without having to bend so low your hands touch the floor...anybody can do that....i think the greatest kicker of all time has to be chuck norris.

Well a gymnast can pull that off. Some figure skaters too probably. Power, speed and accuracy are all more important than flexibility and the ability to throw high kicks. The higher you kick, the more likely you are to be thrown off balance, unless you have a lot of experience and training on your back.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

my criteria for being a good kicker is to be able to deliver a high sidekick without having to bend so low your hands touch the floor...anybody can do that....i think the greatest kicker of all time has to be chuck norris.

Im not even gonna comment on that!

[Chinatown Kid]

David Chiang, he could fake the hand techniques in films like The Loot, The Challenger and Shaolin Mantis pretty well but when he tried to fake the kicks it showed. :(

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I wonder why Chiang didn't try to improve in that area, because he was obviously lacking. Even Ti Lung was a better kicker than Chiang. Most guys improve at some point, like when Kurata started working with Bruce Leung, Pai Paio working with Ron Van Clief. You can see the improvement. Did Chiang ever get better at kicking? Because I didn't notice it.

[Jesse Smooth]

Supposedly, Tsai Hung/Choi Wang is a Korean. Yet, he wasn't of a top notch bootmaster. Seemed to be more of a brawler. Does anyone know of his martial arts background?

[Chinatown Kid]

I would like to know too, I didn't even know he was Korean. That's the guy that had the ax blade he swung on the end of the rope in 5 Shaolin Masters and star of The Condemed, correct? If that's the guy he sure was ripped and looked like he was strong, I would have guessed he did a southern Kung Fu style or some type of grappling.

[noodle]

Well a gymnast can pull that off. Some figure skaters too probably. Power, speed and accuracy are all more important than flexibility and the ability to throw high kicks. The higher you kick, the more likely you are to be thrown off balance, unless you have a lot of experience and training on your back. by your criteria you realize that mean jet li ,flash legs tan,john liu and the likes are not great kickers just mere gymnast,because their kicks lack power and speed....i'm a big fan of Whang In-Sik

[ekisha]

As others mentioned
David Chiang
Ti Lung
Lam Ching Ying(i am a big fan of him,but i guess he didn't do it well on screen).
________
VAPEZILLA COST (http://vaporizerinfo.com/)

[rdenn]

sze ma lung aka shaking eagle has some original style handwork.

[Endsang]

by your criteria you realize that mean jet li ,flash legs tan,john liu and the likes are not great kickers just mere gymnast,because their kicks lack power and speed....i'm a big fan of Whang In-Sik

You're really gonna go out and say that Jet Li doesn't have speed? Guess he should change his name then.
Keep in mind that a lot of screen fighters have to slow down for the camera, in order to make the moves look fancy, and kickers are no exception. John Liu and Tan Tao Liang do a lot of static leg work which isn't very applicable in real life, although it proves great leg strength. Don't know that much about John Liu, but considering Flashlegs' background in competitive tae kwon do and onscreen performance, I'd definately say he's got the power. I agree on Whang In-Sik though.. he's got some of the best leg control I've seen in a movie, and he is a true master.

[Jesse Smooth]

I would like to know too, I didn't even know he was Korean. That's the guy that had the ax blade he swung on the end of the rope in 5 Shaolin Masters and star of The Condemed, correct? If that's the guy he sure was ripped and looked like he was strong, I would have guessed he did a southern Kung Fu style or some type of grappling.


Yup, that's him. Ironically, he played a Korean taekwondo stylist in Joseph Kuos's Triangular Duel. Yet, his kicks weren't that great (or high). Yet, he's a tough fighter and I wouldn't have wanted to mess with him back then. I think someone on here stated a few years back that he and Choi Min-kyu/Martin Chui (from several Dragon Lee movies) are brothers. I don't know if that's true since on HKMDB.com, the characters for their surnames are different.

[Chinatown Kid]

Thanks for the info, he definately looked like a tough dude for sure. He really had that mean ass look too that made him such a great villain. I liked his performance in Deadly Strike opposite Ho Chung Tao.

[Jingangchan]

Well a gymnast can pull that off. Some figure skaters too probably. Power, speed and accuracy are all more important than flexibility and the ability to throw high kicks. The higher you kick, the more likely you are to be thrown off balance, unless you have a lot of experience and training on your back.

Actually, the "ability to throw high kicks" generally implies some power (your legs have to be strong enough to do so). Power, speed and accuracy generally imply the ability to throw a high kick (e.g. if you can't hit your opponent's head then you kinda don't posess the "accuracy" and "power" that is required for such a maneuver). Flexibility is important but, not at the top of the list though (see Chuck Norris and Kieth Vitali).

[Jingangchan]

That's retarded dude! Im no BL fan by any means, but there is no way that he belongs on a list of terrible kickers! I'd put BL on a kickers' list...he may not win but, he'd be on it. His kicks were some of the fastest and powerful...and he was reportedly very accurate.

[Jingangchan]

You're really gonna go out and say that Jet Li doesn't have speed? Guess he should change his name then.
Keep in mind that a lot of screen fighters have to slow down for the camera, in order to make the moves look fancy, and kickers are no exception. John Liu and Tan Tao Liang do a lot of static leg work which isn't very applicable in real life, although it proves great leg strength. Don't know that much about John Liu, but considering Flashlegs' background in competitive tae kwon do and onscreen performance, I'd definately say he's got the power. I agree on Whang In-Sik though.. he's got some of the best leg control I've seen in a movie, and he is a true master.

I think you missed his point. Also, the above martial artists were usually pretty fast on screen. John Liu (Liu Chung Liang) was Tan Tao Liang's student too. Another great "boot master" was Han Ying...

[Jingangchan]

I always found that Lo Mang seemed to not do alot of kicking when he fought. His upper body was his main focus, and rightly so. He would kick once in awhile but his kicks were definetly not as strong as his arms.

I've seen him throw some pretty good high kicks before...very rarely but, when he did them they were great. His basic front kick is probably the best I've seen (with the exception of Hsia Kuang Li). People have to remember that since HK cinema is from HK-a region of China where flashy KF leg techniques are not common or as appreciated as in other places-many of the martial arts movies from there emphasized the philosophy of hand techniques and close range fighting. There is a reason why they usually had to get TKD people to play kicking kung fu styles...

[Jingangchan]

There are alot of KF stars that are good kickers it's just that they are not most of the time in the same class as superkickers(who usually come from a Korean style background but not always) who have usually based their carear off of skill using the legs. Jimmy Wang Yu and Lo Lieh are two guys that come to mind as not too skilled at kicking and look stiff when doing so and as Morgoth said Chen Sing is another, but there hands are pretty fast. Chan Wei Man's kicks don't look that great on screen either. Wang Lung Wei is great using his hands and looks powerful on screen but I can tell kicking is not his thing, that fight finale in Martial Club is a good example because he was doubled for the high kicks in that scene.

John Chang is a good example...borderline...not known for kicking but, the few he throws are good.