The PanMedia Issue [Archive] - Kung Fu Cinema Forums

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 03:32 PM

bobo

03-03-2009, 06:00 PM

I posted this in another place, but I'd like a broader discussion on the topic (even though it's been talked to death). I feel that I missing a few key aspects of the PanMedia debate. If the companies PanMedia steals from don't care enough to stop them, how are they bootlegs? Unauthorized, sure, but if the rights holders don't feel the need to act on their rights to stop PanMedia, how is it wrong to do it? Have the rights holders tried to stop PanMedia? If so, why have they failed? These are all genuine questions. I'm not sure what my opinion on these discs are.

i believe the rights holders do not act simply because of money--it cost to much. lets face it people--kungfu movies are not that big a money maker--outside of movies with bruce lee-jet lee and jackie chan these companies couldn't care less about kungfu movies and the bootlegs. martial arts movies are very genre specific and are not big money makers--thats one of the reasons the big companies are not even interested in releasing them. kungfu movies are rolled in with euro horror-muscleman movies and spaghetti westerns--they leave them to the small companies and who ever else can be bothered with them . think about how long PAN MEDIA has been around and remember they go by different names--REDSUN--BONZAI MEDIA-HK TAIWAN VIDEO etc--if any of the big guys were going to lower the boom on PM they would have done it by now. besides all that if it wasn't for PM half the kungfu movies would never be available to regular people. i can see it now--the big wigs at SONY - PARAMOUNT or UNIVERSAL sitting down to a meeting and someone says theres an unofficial release of KILLER CLANS being released--they would be severely ripped apart for wasting valuable company time and warned never to bring it up again---thats the way it works in these kind of companies. i know a lot of people here like to blame PM for the lack of legit titles but i have never seen it that way--maybe a very small percentage of blame but i blame inside corporate incompetence--so far every legit release has had a few flaws and when questioned about it they all make up feeble excuses or lies or just ignore the issue altogether--look at BCI promising the uncut english dub version of LIFE GAMBLE and then not bothering and when questioned about it they just totally ignore it--and instead of people questioning it --they get conned into feeling sorry for poor cliff. i for one knew that guys like cliff always find new employment which he did--what bothers me is that i asked this guy for months about the dub and was totally ignored--which at the very least is poor business--also because i bring this stuff up i usually get ripped for it. the bottom line is this---IF the legit companies are not going to release the movies whats so wrong with pan media doing it--to me its better than nothing. i have bought every legit english dub shaw release so far and will continue to buy all future titles and then ash can my PM copies--but its nice to know PM is there as a backup system if the legits fail. anyway this topic will never truely end just like dubs vs nondubs will never end--i think its time people just learned to live with it--thats enough ranting for one day--ADIOS--->VIA CON DIOS--and oh yes i'm prepared to be verbally destroyed again for stateing my unpopular but true opinion.

Atherton

03-03-2009, 06:49 PM

Is Jack Stiller (aka Jack Chazenow?) still running this outfit? he used to come here and then he claimed he was no longer involved in such matters. I highly doubt that. But...

I remember when he posted Sigourney Weavers invoice many years ago.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 07:29 PM

the fbi doesn't care about kung fu movies, they have more important things on their minds.

I don't think it's that simple? Surely it wouldn't be a matter of the FBI giving a crap, it would be a matter of the rights-holders suing, right? This isn't like the local cops sweeping up a guy on the street, selling cams of current blockbusters.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 08:14 PM

Someone here? I wouldn't expect the FBI to do anything about it anyway. Aren't the companies who think they own the rights to this material supposed to sue? Isn't that how the law works, at least in the US? I might be mistaken. I was hoping some of our experts would help enlighten me.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 08:31 PM

Killer Meteor

03-03-2009, 08:45 PM

I'm inclined to agree. But, that said, I keep hearing people say that buying bootlegs keeps legit releases from coming out. That sounds like a decent argument, but is there proof? Is there evidence that a legit studio has not released a legit version because of a PanMedia release or is it all just anecdotal? Also, if a legit studio has the rights to a film, why wouldn't they take action against PanMedia?

Media Blasters plans for Angela Mao releases, and Pathfinder's for further Wang Yu films, were stopped because of Panmedia selling the boots in US stores before negociations were complete

Killer Meteor

03-03-2009, 08:49 PM

[QUOTE=bobo;83925]. besides all that if it wasn't for PM half the kungfu movies would never be available to regular people.

-look at BCI promising the uncut english dub version of LIFE GAMBLE and then not bothering and when questioned about it they just totally ignore it--and instead of people questioning it --they get conned into feeling sorry for poor cliff. i for one knew that guys like cliff always find new employment which he did--what bothers me is that i asked this guy for months about the dub and was totally ignored--which at the very least is poor business--also because i bring this stuff up i usually get ripped for it. the bottom line is this---IF the QUOTE]

Bobo, we keep telling you! Panmedia keeps preventing anyone else from reasing to regular people and they can only steal from what's there. When that dries up, Panmedia can't release anymore, and they have killed off severak chances for widescreen prints and even rare dubs because they were selling crappy old tape dupes

And as for Cliff. He did his best. We all know how difficult Celestial is for these companies. How you have the nerve to call him a liar when you have been advocating the cutting off of support for these legit companies by championing Panmedia shows what a hypocritical fool you are. Deal with and fucking grow up

greenfan

03-03-2009, 09:12 PM

Atherton

03-03-2009, 09:15 PM

Man it looks like we have a bunch of newcomers here (that's cool). We've had this argument before, seems like a billion times. When Master Haynes was alive he use to set us all straight on the damage supporting bootlegs can do. Linn had the inside information and knew what was up. I hope none of us forgotten. Maybe some of you weren't around.

I'm not trying to say I've never bought a bootleg before. But once Linn (as well many others) set me straight, I stopped supporting people like Stiller, Panmedia, Ground Zero and the like.

niro

03-03-2009, 09:19 PM

I will never pay money for commercially sold bootlegs, i dnt care if theres no other version of that film available, i would do my hardest to find on the internet to stream watch or download

How many people if they had a bootleg copy of a film would go and spend money on a legit release if it ever came out? Im sure hardcore fans would, but what about the casual fans or people just trying out new genres? They probably wouldnt even know the copy they have is in fact an illegal bootleg.
As has been said the martial arts film market is very niche and making good profit legitimately is very hard to do, i bet some of these rights owners would like to do something about the bootlegs but cannot go forward with it as fighting a legal battle can get very expensive, and it wouldnt surprise me to learn that half these rights owners are clueless their stuff is being bootlegged.

Also bootlegs turn away potential fans from buying legit releases because of their quality. I know when i was a kid and didnt have clue about bootlegs i spent money on a release thinking it was legit stuff and the quality was craptacular, which put me off buying martial arts dvds for a long time as money was at a premium. Now i'm older, wiser, and become a fan of the genre so i've picked up knowledge about this stuff

btw can anyone direct me to the thread/post that Linn made on this subject, or is it not in existence anymore?

Killer Meteor

03-03-2009, 09:33 PM

dragonherb

03-03-2009, 09:45 PM

btw can anyone direct me to the thread/post that Linn made on this subject, or is it not in existence anymore?

http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4419&page=3

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 09:53 PM

Media Blasters plans for Angela Mao releases, and Pathfinder's for further Wang Yu films, were stopped because of Panmedia selling the boots in US stores before negociations were complete

I don't suppose we have any links to articles about that do we? This is what I mean about anecdotal evidence. I don't doubt this is true, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the particulars of this issue, and it would help to see some actual information.

Bobo, we keep telling you! Panmedia keeps preventing anyone else from releasing to regular people...

How do they do this?

...and they have killed off several chances for widescreen prints and even rare dubs because they were selling crappy old tape dupes

I don't understand. Why would crappy tapes dupes stop a widescreen print or rare dub from being released?

Companies might not have the money to be able to responded through legal channels.

Do we have cited examples of this being the case? I am only skeptical, because I know someone who has a small business (I would only BARELY even consider it small it is so minuscule. She's the ONLY employee) and when someone was selling knockoffs, all it took was a lawyer. Granted that cost money, but she was able to do it. Also, wouldn't there be money in proving that PanMedia was making money off of content you owned?

The original rights holders might not be aware that their material is being stolen.

If this is the case, how can we say that their material being stolen is prevent a legitimate release? If the owners don't even know PanMedia is selling a ripoff, how could the ripoff's existence prevent the legit release from existing?

The problem for the consumer is not so much that the Panmedia ass hat is stealing someone else's work, it's that it puts companies off from releasing the same material. If a bootleg of a film is on websites and in stores, what's the point of a legit company bothering. .

Don't potential consumers still want a legit release? Even if you take into account places selling the PanMedia knockoffs, wouldn't a legit company have more headway into retailers? If someone just bought Lady Kung Fu on a whim, why wouldn't they be just as likely to buy Dragon Dynasty's Hapikido on the same whim? And wouldn't more people be more likely to stumble upon a store that sold the legit release of Hapkido than they would a store that sold PanMedia's Lady Kung Fu?

If you want a film that hasn't got a legal release, just trade for a DVD-r. It all comes down to how much you care about the genre.

Here's something I would like clarified. If the rights holders don't exercise their rights, is a PanMedia release actually truly illegal? If no one is claiming they own the rights to something that PanMedia is releasing, is it against the law? It might be, I'm just wondering.

As has been said the martial arts film market is very niche and making good profit legitimately is very hard to do, i bet some of these rights owners would like to do something about the bootlegs but cannot go forward with it as fighting a legal battle can get very expensive, and it wouldnt surprise me to learn that half these rights owners are clueless their stuff is being bootlegged.

Why would it be an expensive battle? If it's as cut-and-dry as people say, why would PanMedia even have a leg to stand on if challenged in court? What am I missing?

Also bootlegs turn away potential fans from buying legit releases because of their quality.

But isn't it the responsibility of a company to convince the potential consumer of quality, no matter the situation?

Again, I'm not trying to be an advocate for PanMedia. I am just trying to better understand the arguments against them.

bobo

03-03-2009, 10:03 PM

lets look at some facts here and forget the name calling for a minute--1. these companies--media blasters-image-dragondynasty all started their releases of shaw titles knowing full well in advance that PAN MEDIA existed--yet they still went ahead--it wasn't like PM just popped up after the fact. 2. as i have said before it is now the easiest excuse in the book that every time a company runs into any trouble at all the we'll just blame PAN MEDIA excuse comes out--think about it--anything that goes wrong no matter what or who is to blame they can just point the finger at PM. I bet every company in the world would like such a convenient scapegoat.3. why don't the rights holders sue or something--easy answer--MONEY--it would cost them lots of time and money and as i keep repeating there is not big money to be made in kung fu movies--believe me if there was big money involved they would swoop down on PM like vultures on a carcass--but it ain't gonna happen. honestly don't you think the fbi has better things to worry about than 30yo kungfu movies--even when the police do shut down movie bootleggers its only because they are booting new and unreleased movies from big companies. compare kung fu movies to say spaghetti westerns for a minute--the only SW the big companies care about are the ones with clint eastwood and a small handfull of others--you can't really believe they give a damn about the rest or who releases them-- most of my spaghetti western collection is probably bootleg as well--just a quick question--does anyone here know if wildeast is legit or bootleg ? i buy all their releases as well. and yes i know that a lot of PM stuff is of poor quality-but in some cases i'd rather have a crappy version than no version at all. also for all the people who say that i and others should be patient and wait--i have been waiting and waiting and waiting since the eighties--i would like to see some of these movies before i die you know--one more thing---could anyone here confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that the media blaster release of THE MARTIAL CLUB will contain the english dub version ? a lot of pre order sites list it as english sub titles only--after all MB promised that all its releases would contain the dub versions--and of course i can't get any response from them--in fact i can't get responses from any of them--image--dragondynasty--well go usa and of course the now defunct bci. great way to do business.

The Amazing Psycho Per

03-03-2009, 10:12 PM

Man Deathstrike you're one stubborn fellow...

To release a movie in a particular country you need rights... That is a fact, weither you want to understand it or not. Those products are copyrighted and protected by law.

Why don't companies take actions? Most labels releasing martial arts movies don't make that much money. Taking legal action is expensive. It's just common sense that there is not enough money at stake to warrant the time and energy of going to court.

How have they prevented legit release?
Geez open your eyes... Look at all the legit companies falling like flies. Is this only imputable to Panmedia and others... No. But it surely doesn't help. Let's take the Shaw Brothers exemple. You want to release some R1 titles so you pay the price to acquire the distribution rights. If those titles are cheaply available already (remember, the competitor didn't pay the rights) what chance do you stand. This is not a very big market. Most consumers won't bother with ethics and buy the cheapest one. Do you really think a company like BCI and Media Blaster has the financiary backbone to engage in a lawsuit over some kung fu flix. I doubt they have the time, ressources and energy to do so. I don't have an article link, it's just common sense.

There's just not much else I can say to you... Panmedia releases titles without acquiting the required right to do so. That is called stealing. Maybe there is a legal blur that allows it to go unpunished, but that doesn't make it right.

HAZ

03-03-2009, 10:16 PM

I would never pay a cent for a panmedia release. I would think that only people with just a casual interest in these movies would buy these, but not fans, & certainly not people in the internet age. If you can post here, then you're tech savvy enough to find every panmedia release on line for free, along with all the english dubs that appeared on that kfchannel. I've often thought about the point that deathstrike makes in his original post -if the rights holders don't feel the need to act on their rights to stop PanMedia, how is it wrong to do it? Are the companies so cash strapped that the don't want to pay the legal costs? Also, Panmedia, IMO, is a drop in the ocean of bootlegs. Go visit your local Chinatown. Go to Toronto. There is a SEA of bootlegs there; hundreds of thousands of dvd's sold in dozens & dozens of shops in the downtown area. Its endless & the scope of it has to be seen to be believed. A single mall can have 5-6 dvd stores in them selling copies of KF movies. Picture over 100 stores within 15 city blocks without a single legit dvd being sold & them selling the dvd's for something crazy like 10 films for 20dollars. And that's just in one city. Panmedia is baby stuff compared to this.

bobo

03-03-2009, 10:51 PM

yo deathstrike--very cool and very logical--i doubt any one here can give you viable logical real world answers to your points because every one here blames PAN MEDIA for everything and anything that interfers with the release of a kung fu movie. hapkido got cancelled because of PM--what a load of crap. practically every movie in existence gets released and re released over and over again--you know--the remastered version--the directors cut--the anniversary version--the collectors edition and so on--most people had to rebuy their entire movie collection from vhs to dvd -- i mean get real. i have the old vhs and the PM version of hapkido but would gladly buy it over for a legit remastered copy--i'm convinced most of these companies are run by idiots. i have one other thing to say and i hope everybody gets it. WHAT MAKES A SUCCESSFUL AND PROFITABLE COMPANY ? answer--satisfied customers. maybe just maybe if these kungfu companies and for that matter every company in america could understand that the country wouldn't be in the mess its in now. if you don't understand that-- then theres really no point in trying to explain it.

Killer Meteor

03-03-2009, 10:53 PM

Bobo, you just don't get it. We've explained time and again why Panmedia is a problem and you just repeating your same old junk

HAZ

03-03-2009, 10:58 PM

niro

03-03-2009, 10:59 PM

I wonder if Bobo works for PanMedia

Killer Meteor

03-03-2009, 11:02 PM

I do think that panmedia is a problem, but I don't believe it because I heard it from Dragon Dynasty, frankly. Nobody accepts or believes their excuses for putting out sub-par dvd's. Why should anyone take them for face value when they say they won't put out Hapikdo on account of bootlegging? Maybe they couldn't find the print? lol.

I think the Hapkido issue was something Media Blasters were planning, or at least some Angela Mao

A lot of the info we have on Panmedia comes from the late Linn Hayes, who knew his stuff. Bobo doesn't even know how to type a coherent sentence, yet feels he can badmouth not just companies but people like Cliff

And lets be honest, Panmedia never put out anything rare did they? I mean all those dubs for the old Shaws have been doing the rounds for donkey's years

Killer Meteor

03-03-2009, 11:12 PM

Its true if you go to south america all they sell is bootlegs down there.

I was tricked into buying panmedias releases since they are sold at legit stores with good prices. I can say some of these panmedia bootlegs are quite bad, and when a decent version comes along I buy it. A true fan of the genre is so eager to see the movie he must have it either it be bootleg or legit, a true fan must have some version of his favorite movies.

And again I repeat: the problem is not with obtaining a boot, its with supporting the boots that are sold alongside legit products!!!

The Amazing Psycho Per

03-03-2009, 11:19 PM

Do we have cited examples of this being the case? I am only skeptical, because I know someone who has a small business (I would only BARELY even consider it small it is so minuscule. She's the ONLY employee) and when someone was selling knockoffs, all it took was a lawyer. Granted that cost money, but she was able to do it. Also, wouldn't there be money in proving that PanMedia was making money off of content you owned?

Here's a little exemple:

In 2005, the french distribution company Déclic Images, released the TV series Goldorak on DVD(UFO robot Grendizer in the States I believe...), shortly after Toei releases it in Japan remastered. Déclic Images didn't buy the rights to do so, and when Toei found out, took legal actions. Well, now we're in 2009, and the whole matter is about to be settle in may. That's four years of judiciary battle for one tv show.

I think this might be an exemple of how time consuming it is. I don't know if it has to do with the fact that it implicates parties from different countries, but the whole thing can get pretty complicated.

WHAT MAKES A SUCCESSFUL AND PROFITABLE COMPANY ? answer--satisfied customers.

Oh and Panmedia cares about consumers. They release the first thing they have on hands. Full sceen, widescreen, dub, sub, bad quality, anything to make a quick buck. Look I'm not trying to demonize them more then they need to be, like Haz said, they are a problem, not THE problem. But what they do is not right, nor legal.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 11:39 PM

Man Deathstrike you're one stubborn fellow...

I actually really resent that! I thought I was being pretty reasonable. I really am trying to figure out this whole thing.

To release a movie in a particular country you need rights... That is a fact, weither you want to understand it or not. Those products are copyrighted and protected by law.

Again, no need to be nasty about it. My sentences ended with question marks for a reason! I am genuinely asking questions. I don't have a pro-PanMedia agenda, I am just trying to get facts straight. I understand that people have strong feelings about this issue.

Why don't companies take actions? Most labels releasing martial arts movies don't make that much money. Taking legal action is expensive. It's just common sense that there is not enough money at stake to warrant the time and energy of going to court.

Is it? Would PanMedia have enough of a leg to stand on to drag legal action out long enough to become really expensive? Is they do, why? What makes these cases so complicated that legal action would be really time consuming? If they are that complicated, why is that? It seems like if the case is cut and dry enough, that PanMedia would get thrashed.

Geez open your eyes... Look at all the legit companies falling like flies. Is this only imputable to Panmedia and others... No. But it surely doesn't help. Let's take the Shaw Brothers exemple. You want to release some R1 titles so you pay the price to acquire the distribution rights. If those titles are cheaply available already (remember, the competitor didn't pay the rights) what chance do you stand. This is not a very big market. Most consumers won't bother with ethics and buy the cheapest one. Do you really think a company like BCI and Media Blaster has the financiary backbone to engage in a lawsuit over some kung fu flix. I doubt they have the time, ressources and energy to do so. I don't have an article link, it's just common sense.

No, I don't think it is just "common sense". I wouldn't be asking these questions if I agreed it was that simple. Don't MediaBlasters and BCI have more access to consumers than PanMedia? Again, I am not disputing that having knockoffs is bad for companies. I am just not sure I understand why PanMedia prevents legit releases from being produced.

There's just not much else I can say to you... Panmedia releases titles without acquiting the required right to do so. That is called stealing. Maybe there is a legal blur that allows it to go unpunished, but that doesn't make it right.

I'm in total agreement that laws don't dictate morality. That said, people do claim that what PanMedia does is illegal, and one of the things I am asking is if that is technically true.

I am just trying to form a reasonably informed opinion. I don't think I'm being a jerk about it.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 11:44 PM

Bravery

03-03-2009, 11:45 PM

Dragon Dynasty doesn't care, it doesn't take as much money as people here believe to get the court to issue a cease and disorder for them to take to a store such as FYE. It starts at the top, HKflix doesn't sale items that Taiseng holds the rights to, that includes Panmedia. Does Taiseng have more money than Dragon Dynasty? the question is rhetorrical

Also, trading of any movie that is not listed as public domain is a form of bootlegging. Reselling a movie is bootlegging, trading an original for a dvd r or a dvd r for an original or an original for an original, or however you decide to do it, is a form of bootlegging. It hurts the market as much as boots do, but peole don't seem to care. They pick and choose which form of booting is exceptable and anyone who disagrees gets called names.

There needs to be one stance on bootlegs across the board and then proper steps can be taken to making sure these legit companies release proper releases for an acceptable price.

There is a valid point to the argument that bootlegging hurts releases, but it has nothing to do with what gets released as much as how the product is released. If the company feels they'll make as much money for including a dub as they would without it, then why add more options to releases. They see people buying crappy Panmedia discs that may or may not work(from what I hear) they'll see no reason to put any extended effort into a release of theres.

Just my two cents.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 11:45 PM

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 11:48 PM

And again I repeat: the problem is not with obtaining a boot, its with supporting the boots that are sold alongside legit products!!!

OK, see, this I TOTALLY understand. AND totally agree with. My questions are more directed toward the movies and dubs we couldn't otherwise acquire, not movies that have R1 releases sitting right next to PanMedia counterparts.

The Amazing Psycho Per

03-03-2009, 11:50 PM

Didn't try to imply you were a jerk... Just stubborn XD

Is it? Would PanMedia have enough of a leg to stand on to drag legal action out long enough to become really expensive? Is they do, why? What makes these cases so complicated that legal action would be really time consuming? If they are that complicated, why is that? It seems like if the case is cut and dry enough, that PanMedia would get thrashed.

I believe I answered that in the previous post. I don't know the judiciary terms in english, but it's all a game of appeal of a decision and going to higher judiciary instances. Not as simple as it look.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 11:51 PM

Here's a little exemple:

In 2005, the french distribution company Déclic Images, released the TV series Goldorak on DVD(UFO robot Grendizer in the States I believe...), shortly after Toei releases it in Japan remastered. Déclic Images didn't buy the rights to do so, and when Toei found out, took legal actions. Well, now we're in 2009, and the whole matter is about to be settle in may. That's four years of judiciary battle for one tv show.

I think this might be an exemple of how time consuming it is. I don't know if it has to do with the fact that it implicates parties from different countries, but the whole thing can get pretty complicated.

Interesting. But do we know that the legal issue was this simple? Was Déclic Images claiming they owned the rights? Are we sure the issue was this simple; that one company just stole it and released it? I'm not saying I think it WASN'T that simple, I'm just curious about the specifics.

DeathShrike

03-03-2009, 11:57 PM

Dragon Dynasty doesn't care, it doesn't take as much money as people here believe to get the court to issue a cease and disorder for them to take to a store such as FYE. It starts at the top, HKflix doesn't sale items that Taiseng holds the rights to, that includes Panmedia. Does Taiseng have more money than Dragon Dynasty? the question is rhetorrical

Right. My friend had a cease and desist order sent out for 250 bucks. If they had pushed it further to trial, the lawyer would have gotten paid only if some money came out of it.

Also, trading of any movie that is not listed as public domain is a form of bootlegging. Reselling a movie is bootlegging, trading an original for a dvd r or a dvd r for an original or an original for an original, or however you decide to do it, is a form of bootlegging. It hurts the market as much as boots do, but peole don't seem to care. They pick and choose which form of booting is exceptable and anyone who disagrees gets called names.

BOOM! Yes! Exactly! This is key to some of my questions! The whole issue does not seem as black and white to me as it does to some.

There needs to be one stance on bootlegs across the board and then proper steps can be taken to making sure these legit companies release proper releases for an acceptable price.

There is a valid point to the argument that bootlegging hurts releases, but it has nothing to do with what gets released as much as how the product is released. If the company feels they'll make as much money for including a dub as they would without it, then why add more options to releases. They see people buying crappy Panmedia discs that may or may not work(from what I hear) they'll see no reason to put any extended effort into a release of theres.

Just my two cents.

Interesting points....

The Amazing Psycho Per

03-03-2009, 11:58 PM

Interesting. But do we know that the legal issue was this simple? Was Déclic Images claiming they owned the rights? Are we sure the issue was this simple; that one company just stole it and released it? I'm not saying I think it WASN'T that simple, I'm just curious about the specifics.

Actually the story is as simple as that, but also a little more complicated. Let's just say that due to some employees deserting to a competitor (that was supposed to acquire the rights in partership with them), DI were affraid they would release the DVDs before them, so they full knowledgeably pirated the japanese DVDs, adding a french track on it. So basically, they knew they didn't have the rights and decided to go anyway. Appart from the desertion melodrama, it is exactly the same situation as any bootlegging company.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 12:01 AM

Actually the story is as simple as that, but also a little more complicated. Let's just say that due to some employees deserting to a competitor (that was supposed to acquire the rights in partership with them), DI were affraid they would release the DVDs before them, so they full knowledgeably pirated the japanese DVDs, adding a french track on it. So basically, they knew they didn't have the rights and decided to go anyway. Appart from the desertion melodrama, it is exactly the same situation as any bootlegging company.

Interesting.... Employees from which company deserted? Also, is there ant info on this case online? I would love to read about it.

The Amazing Psycho Per

03-04-2009, 12:42 AM

Interesting.... Employees from which company deserted?

I employed the wrong word... Employees from Déclic Image went to work for another company called RCP. RCP was suppose to acquire to rights in the name of Déclic Image. When DI peolple went through the email and papers of the three ex-employees, they had reasons to believe they were going to release the DVDs with the other company, RCP. That's the reason why DI went ahead and release the Goldorak DVDs, even though they didn't have the rights.

There is a French website dedicated to the whole affair. But of course, it's only in french. Here's a link anyway: http://www.nonoche.com/goldogate/

The Silver Fox

03-04-2009, 02:39 AM

Some companies are sticking it to Pan Media. If you look up 5 Element Ninjas at HKflix, the Pan Media version can't ship to the US because of Media Blasters copyright.

Personally, I try to buy legit at all costs yet my collection contains a few boots. Anyone else feel this whole debate is a little ironic seeing as the Shaw Bros,Seasonal etc. stole huge amounts of musical material from other movies to create soundtracks for their films? They certainly didn't care about copyrights ha,ha.

The whole thing is actually pretty funny. People arguing on the ethics of buying bootleg copies of material that is 1) partially pirated (soundtracks)to begin with 2) Actors in these movies paid slave wages, probably never saw a dime of royalties, 3) The companies that do own the rights don't even care(for the most part). Anyway, I try to buy legit but sometimes I don't.

vengeanceofhumanlanterns

03-04-2009, 03:19 AM

Listen, many valid points have been made as to whether or not to be concerned with purchasing bootlegs. I (even though I'm a moderator and will likely be given a very hard time about my response here) have absolutely no sympathy or patience for the companies who basically missed the boat on the kung fu (martial arts) rush that took place commercially ten years ago or more. I remember when Suncoast was releasing new martial arts films almost weekly. What were being released were boots. A very short sightedness on any company considering legit releases. OK, boots were the staple back then, NOW, OH NO god forbid the very history of trading that (basically) kept this genre alive. Legit releases of these films (especially with tracked down english dubs etc.) will fair just as wel as if the boots provided by Pan Media existed or not. People devoted or interested in this genre don't care. They'll obtain the best quality version of these films that are released. Regardless of the order by which, or by who, releases them. Make your excuses. This genre dose'nt mean anything more than cult status in the US anyway and that's it. I cannot stand the futility of this debate. It goes on and on. Deathstrike had a legitimate question. If legit versions of these films are not released with english dubs etc. then obtain them anyway you can period. Any veteran of this forum does that. And the hypocrisy I see posted time and time again in regards to this fact is shameful.

Markgway

03-04-2009, 04:46 AM

I likez too by frum Pan Mediah coz they got dubz n stuf.

The Amazing Psycho Per

03-04-2009, 05:32 AM

Mr Lanterns, maybe you should re-read Sifu Linn's post...

Someone turned me on to this thread...
and here comes another LONG post:

The issue as I see it, is some fans are still living in a state of mind where they think buying bootlegs aren't doing any harm, without updating their knowledge of the situation in the US over the last few years. Very simply, if bootlegs had not invaded the US market place in stores and online prior to the announcement Celestial were releasing the Shaw Brothers films, the events happening now, deals being made for Shaw and other films by US companies, would have occurred years ago. Had the titles not been devalued from years of bootlegs and recent DVD bootleg releases, Tai Seng would have made a deal for the whole package. The price Celestial was asking for wasn't outrageous if we're talking a collection of a couple of hundred unreleased films and about a hundred very well known hits. But they weren't, they were dealing with a couple of hundred unreleased films and a hundred well bootlegged titles that most fans had. This means the base sales they could expect were unknown, they were too many unknown films for the price, and so the deal wasn't done.

In a market sense it's like this, what is the worth of something that everyone has? Not a lot. What is the worth of something no one has? Priceless. Couple that with the fact a title setting on a shelf at Best Buy or the like is flagged by buyers so it won't be bought again for a period of time, and you have an ever dwindling list of titles that can get in stores. This is the reason why you see these bootleg boxsets of Video Asia titles now, because they won't buy the titles again. But if they put them in a boxset under a new title with a cheaper overall price, you've got a new product! This is also why you get DVD labels you don't take the films seriously and won't spend money on making the best product. If you expect to not sell many copies from the start, why would you work hard on a release?

On a cultural level, years of poor quality releases, often boots, caused the film to be considered disposable by critics, and to an extent, fans alike. This also had the result of making fans believe bootlegs were a fine end to a means. That's wasn't a poor choice in the 80s and 90s where it was impossible to see these films. But we are not living in those times any longer. We live in a period where the Internet gives bootleggers instant info and access to everything they need to make product that looks just like a legit releases. It also gives fans the chance to have info on these releases and to choose what they support with their money. By these films being put out by legit (or semi-legit) distributors into legit stores and malls, they take up whatever space could be used by actual legit releases. This in turn makes the likelihood of legit releases less and less.

I've talked about this subject BILLIONS of times and pretty much have had the same conversation each time. It ends up something like this: "Fans want their films NOW, and don't care what happens in the future. If a (insert legit company here) wants to put out a (insert Asian studio name here) label in a year, it doesn't matter right now, they'll buy it when it comes out. In the process, fans buy a bunch of (insert Asian studio name here) boots (online, in store, in mall from homeless man who swears they're not boots) and a kung fu label doesn't look so hot to (insert legit company here) any longer. They drop the idea and move to (insert genre here) films." The problem is, that legit release the fans say they'll buy, rarely ever comes. It's not because the production companies don't want the money of the DVD companies, and it's certainly not because the DVD companies don't want the fan's money, it's because the bootlegger has made the marketplace a “scorched earth” where legit product doesn't have a chance and fans have bought into it completely.

And I want to be clear, the idea that a fan who has some VHS tapes they bought years ago at a flea market somehow has some effect now is ridiculousness. The issue isn't trading or selling copies of the films one on one or even on kung fu sites. That's a drop in the bucket. The issue has always been bootlegs getting into actual stores and online shops, in the process taking up shelf space that could be for a legit product and allowing that product to take root in the market. Let alone deals made with rental companies like Blockbuster and the like. When a movie can be bootlegged and show up in a Best Buy or other store, thus making sure that store won't carry that title again for at least three or four years in some cases, that's the problem here. When a bootleg company can put out a dvd and have it in store selling for seven dollars; but a legit company can't get in the same store selling legit $12 DVDs of titles they've hunted down the rights for, the materials, remastered, etc., that's also a problem. What we U.S. fans usually get from legit companies is two or three releases, then the line is canceled. The idea that Pan Media or any bootleg company is just a good source until the real product comes out is antiquated. They want become the only source (which is what they want) for the foreseeable future because it serves their ends, not because they're helping the fans.

I'm a big fan of these films, I love seeing that newly discovered old school gem just as much as the next guy. But why do fans have to continue being led by the nose? Bootleggers are the reason why you haven't gotten what you wanted, yet you still take up for them like they're some kind of old friend. There's not one film they bootleg that can't be found elsewhere via the fans. Ditto for every bootleg outfit. Redsun has copied dvds from others, as others have copied from them.

And if anyone honestly thinks that companies trying to release these in the US are cutting some back room deal to get a “cut” of bootleggers profits, that's insane. If it ever got out that happened, the company would never be able to deal with any legit company again, distributor or production company. Their business would be ruined. Let alone, who in their right mind would waste all the money in legal fees keeping a lawyer on retainer to deal with the rights and contracts, when they're going to make sure they don't get the films in the first place by helping the bootleggers?

Bootleggers have NOT helped fans here, if anything they've hurt them over and over again. The surprise from me is there's still fans like those posting on this thread who insist this is all fine. Fans want what they want RIGHT NOW, I get that. And it doesn't matter to them it may hurt their chance to see legit releases anytime soon, I hear that too. But why knowingly support people who do nothing but make money off the hardwork and effort of others by stealing transfers, soundtracks, subtitles, dubs, sometimes entire releases, etc. Then turn right around and screw the fans at every turn by undercutting companies that want to release the films makes no sense. I can understand wanting to see the films, but when you can trade for ANYTHING you want, it's defeating the idea of even being a fan of the films IMO to support people you know are putting out bootlegs that ruin your chances of seeing real releases.
__________________

vengeanceofhumanlanterns

03-04-2009, 06:03 AM

That's all I have to say.

tantao3,son of tantao2

03-04-2009, 07:55 AM

...i don't want to be the "devil's advocatus": but who watched kung fu movies some 35 years ago? who watches them now?
the same poeple, who condem all these bootleggers now, said the other day: it's the bootleggers who kept the "genre" alive during the last 19 years or so...this is imo the crazy situation nowadays...

Killer Meteor

03-04-2009, 08:27 AM

tantao3,son of tantao2

03-04-2009, 08:51 AM

...that's why i asking: who watched kung fu movies 35 years ago? who watches them now?

Killer Meteor

03-04-2009, 09:59 AM

Mostly fans

The thing is: the stores don't want to know if the shelves are already full of Panmedia discs of the same titles

niro

03-04-2009, 11:31 AM

For fuck's sake, we keep telling you. It's not boots per se, its the fact Panmedia's boots are sold in legit stores. So if say BCI came to release 5 Shaolin Masters for $15, the stores already have the Panmedia for $10.

THAT'S what the problem is, not fans trading home made tapes or dvd-rs. Do people just not bother to read Linn's post explaining it all?

exactly!
PanMedia and other bootleggers should not be allowed to sell stuff in legit stores, and even if they are i dont understand why the hell these stores allow pirated material to be sold within their walls...do they not know what they are selling? or do they know, not care, and jus want any money that comes from it?

remo

03-04-2009, 02:00 PM

For fuck's sake, we keep telling you. It's not boots per se, its the fact Panmedia's boots are sold in legit stores. So if say BCI came to release 5 Shaolin Masters for $15, the stores already have the Panmedia for $10.

THAT'S what the problem is, not fans trading home made tapes or dvd-rs. Do people just not bother to read Linn's post explaining it all?

This doesn't really sound like a consistent position -- it's OK for fans to have free boots, but not for retail boots to appear in stores? Both rob the rights holders of potential sales.

Killer Meteor

03-04-2009, 02:11 PM

This doesn't really sound like a consistent position -- it's OK for fans to have free boots, but not for retail boots to appear in stores? Both rob the rights holders of potential sales.

But the free boots don't rob the rights holders of their legitmate placements in stores

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 03:45 PM

I employed the wrong word... Employees from Déclic Image went to work for another company called RCP. RCP was suppose to acquire to rights in the name of Déclic Image. When DI peolple went through the email and papers of the three ex-employees, they had reasons to believe they were going to release the DVDs with the other company, RCP. That's the reason why DI went ahead and release the Goldorak DVDs, even though they didn't have the rights.

There is a French website dedicated to the whole affair. But of course, it's only in french. Here's a link anyway: http://www.nonoche.com/goldogate/

What is your interpretation of this paragraph?

Original French text:
Comptant sur le fait que RCP a acquis sans leur dire une licence d’exploitation auprès des japonais et que leur accord de principe tiendra lieu de contrat de licence, Déclic publie les DVD, mettant tout le monde sur le fait accompli. Sauf que… il s’avère que RCP n’a jamais eu les droits de Goldorak.

Google's Translation:
Counting on the fact that RCP has to say without an operating license from the Japanese and their agreement in principle will be the licensing contract, Declic DVD releases, putting everyone on a fait accompli. Except that ... it appears that RCP has never had the rights Goldorak.

This makes it sound, to me, like DI was using some legal wiggle room to drag the case out. In PanMedia's case, they couldn't claim AT ALL that they had the rights to these movies in ANY capacity, could they? My point is just that it doesn't look quite as simple as a theoretical case against PanMedia would be. Somebody mentioned that MediaBlasters got HKFLIX to stop selling the PanMedia Five Element Ninja. If they had enough time and money to get on HKFLIX's case, why couldn't they actually go after PanMedia? I'm just wondering if it's because the legal water is muddier than we realize.

HAZ

03-04-2009, 04:05 PM

This thread is like 12 hours old & 6 pages long. I wish threads about movies put out by legit distributors would gardner this much passion! lol.

bobo

03-04-2009, 04:08 PM

TibetanWhiteCrane

03-04-2009, 04:13 PM

It's time for bozo... I mean bobo the cown to get back to the circus!

HAZ

03-04-2009, 04:41 PM

to deathstrike--i told you not to expect reasonable responses here. one thing i have learned about this forum is this---you have to agree with everyone else or you suffer---here you have to watch and only like mandarin/chinese language shaws--must hate english dubs---and never ever bring up PAN MEDIA. but i'm a rebel. i love the english dub shaws and PM can serve a purpose at times.

I don't agree with a lot of Bobo's comments, but this isn't an unreasonable statement. PM does serve a purpose at times. They have put out some stuff, like Revenge Of The Kung Fu Mao, that I don't think were really available before. The thing is, if you're a serious collector, then there are better & deeper sources for your movie/dub fix then panmedia. I hope you back up all your PM discs because if you were to try & play them now, there's a very good chance they'll all have rotted. Anyhow, it's your money & time.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 04:47 PM

The thing is, if you're a serious collector, then there are better & deeper sources for your movie/dub fix then panmedia.

Well, how serious do I have to be. I heard great things about Hapkido. Hong Kong Legends had folded and their disc went out of print. The only copy I could find online was going for 70 dollars US. No, I am not a serious enough collector to pay 70 bucks for a movie I have not seen, so after some research, I bought the PanMedia Lady Kung Fu. When (if) Dragon Dynasty releases their version, I will pre-order it in a second. PanMedia has not stolen DD's money in this case. They will still get my hard earned money.

HAZ

03-04-2009, 05:00 PM

Well, how serious do I have to be. I heard great things about Hapkido. Hong Kong Legends had folded and their disc went out of print. The only copy I could find online was going for 70 dollars US. No, I am not a serious enough collector to pay 70 bucks for a movie I have not seen, so after some research, I bought the PanMedia Lady Kung Fu. When (if) Dragon Dynasty releases their version, I will pre-order it in a second. PanMedia has not stolen DD's money in this case. They will still get my hard earned money.

Dude, you could have picked up that PM dvd of hapikdo on-line for free & burned it to your own dvd that won't end up rotting in a month. Also, there are sources on-line that have all of the dubs you want for DL, along with fan made dvd's that would make you melt. Like, crazy rare dubbed films in widescreen that don't exist for purchase anywhere. Where do you think PM gets their material from for their dvds? Do you think they make a lot of their own releases? Often, they just scavenge stuff off of torrents. Cut out the middleman & get it from the source. Like I said, though, its your money & time.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 05:06 PM

Dude, you could have picked up that PM dvd of hapikdo on-line for free & burned it to your own dvd that won't end up rotting in a month. Also, there are sources on-line that have all of the dubs you want for DL, along with fan made dvd's that would make you melt. Like, crazy rare dubbed films in widescreen that don't exist for purchase anywhere. Where do you think PM gets their material from for their dvds? Do you think they make a lot of their own releases? Often, they just scavenge stuff off of torrents. Cut out the middleman & get it from the source. Like I said, though, its your money & time.

Sorry. Where do you find these? You can PM me if you wish. The only torrents I ever find are Real Video, which is basically useless. I would love to find fan made DVDs, but I have no idea where to look! Also, I spent a lot of time and money buying a ton of the OOP HKL discs, with no regrets. But 70 bucks was pushing it for me, especially for one I had never seen.

niro

03-04-2009, 07:17 PM

already found a torrent for the dvdrip of the HKL release of Hapkido on first page of google search lol...it depends on your search words and how you search...of course lot of torrents dnt still have 1000's of seeders but they hav at least a couple to keep the torrents alive.

For pedicab driver I had to search a little throughly to find direct download links as torrents are not good for me

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 07:33 PM

I have read Linn's post before. Actually, it's what caused me to ask more questions.

Someone The issue as I see it, is some fans are still living in a state of mind where they think buying bootlegs aren't doing any harm, without updating their knowledge of the situation in the US over the last few years. Very simply, if bootlegs had not invaded the US market place in stores and online prior to the announcement Celestial were releasing the Shaw Brothers films, the events happening now, deals being made for Shaw and other films by US companies, would have occurred years ago. Had the titles not been devalued from years of bootlegs and recent DVD bootleg releases, Tai Seng would have made a deal for the whole package. The price Celestial was asking for wasn't outrageous if we're talking a collection of a couple of hundred unreleased films and about a hundred very well known hits. But they weren't, they were dealing with a couple of hundred unreleased films and a hundred well bootlegged titles that most fans had. This means the base sales they could expect were unknown, they were too many unknown films for the price, and so the deal wasn't done.

In a market sense it's like this, what is the worth of something that everyone has? Not a lot. What is the worth of something no one has? Priceless. Couple that with the fact a title setting on a shelf at Best Buy or the like is flagged by buyers so it won't be bought again for a period of time, and you have an ever dwindling list of titles that can get in stores. This is the reason why you see these bootleg boxsets of Video Asia titles now, because they won't buy the titles again. But if they put them in a boxset under a new title with a cheaper overall price, you've got a new product! This is also why you get DVD labels you don't take the films seriously and won't spend money on making the best product. If you expect to not sell many copies from the start, why would you work hard on a release?

On a cultural level, years of poor quality releases, often boots, caused the film to be considered disposable by critics, and to an extent, fans alike. This also had the result of making fans believe bootlegs were a fine end to a means. That's wasn't a poor choice in the 80s and 90s where it was impossible to see these films. But we are not living in those times any longer. We live in a period where the Internet gives bootleggers instant info and access to everything they need to make product that looks just like a legit releases. It also gives fans the chance to have info on these releases and to choose what they support with their money. By these films being put out by legit (or semi-legit) distributors into legit stores and malls, they take up whatever space could be used by actual legit releases. This in turn makes the likelihood of legit releases less and less.

I've talked about this subject BILLIONS of times and pretty much have had the same conversation each time. It ends up something like this: "Fans want their films NOW, and don't care what happens in the future. If a (insert legit company here) wants to put out a (insert Asian studio name here) label in a year, it doesn't matter right now, they'll buy it when it comes out. In the process, fans buy a bunch of (insert Asian studio name here) boots (online, in store, in mall from homeless man who swears they're not boots) and a kung fu label doesn't look so hot to (insert legit company here) any longer. They drop the idea and move to (insert genre here) films." The problem is, that legit release the fans say they'll buy, rarely ever comes. It's not because the production companies don't want the money of the DVD companies, and it's certainly not because the DVD companies don't want the fan's money, it's because the bootlegger has made the marketplace a “scorched earth” where legit product doesn't have a chance and fans have bought into it completely.

And I want to be clear, the idea that a fan who has some VHS tapes they bought years ago at a flea market somehow has some effect now is ridiculousness. The issue isn't trading or selling copies of the films one on one or even on kung fu sites. That's a drop in the bucket. The issue has always been bootlegs getting into actual stores and online shops, in the process taking up shelf space that could be for a legit product and allowing that product to take root in the market. Let alone deals made with rental companies like Blockbuster and the like. When a movie can be bootlegged and show up in a Best Buy or other store, thus making sure that store won't carry that title again for at least three or four years in some cases, that's the problem here. When a bootleg company can put out a dvd and have it in store selling for seven dollars; but a legit company can't get in the same store selling legit $12 DVDs of titles they've hunted down the rights for, the materials, remastered, etc., that's also a problem. What we U.S. fans usually get from legit companies is two or three releases, then the line is canceled. The idea that Pan Media or any bootleg company is just a good source until the real product comes out is antiquated. They want become the only source (which is what they want) for the foreseeable future because it serves their ends, not because they're helping the fans.

I'm a big fan of these films, I love seeing that newly discovered old school gem just as much as the next guy. But why do fans have to continue being led by the nose? Bootleggers are the reason why you haven't gotten what you wanted, yet you still take up for them like they're some kind of old friend. There's not one film they bootleg that can't be found elsewhere via the fans. Ditto for every bootleg outfit. Redsun has copied dvds from others, as others have copied from them.

And if anyone honestly thinks that companies trying to release these in the US are cutting some back room deal to get a “cut” of bootleggers profits, that's insane. If it ever got out that happened, the company would never be able to deal with any legit company again, distributor or production company. Their business would be ruined. Let alone, who in their right mind would waste all the money in legal fees keeping a lawyer on retainer to deal with the rights and contracts, when they're going to make sure they don't get the films in the first place by helping the bootleggers?

Bootleggers have NOT helped fans here, if anything they've hurt them over and over again. The surprise from me is there's still fans like those posting on this thread who insist this is all fine. Fans want what they want RIGHT NOW, I get that. And it doesn't matter to them it may hurt their chance to see legit releases anytime soon, I hear that too. But why knowingly support people who do nothing but make money off the hardwork and effort of others by stealing transfers, soundtracks, subtitles, dubs, sometimes entire releases, etc. Then turn right around and screw the fans at every turn by undercutting companies that want to release the films makes no sense. I can understand wanting to see the films, but when you can trade for ANYTHING you want, it's defeating the idea of even being a fan of the films IMO to support people you know are putting out bootlegs that ruin your chances of seeing real releases.

This is a great post. But it still leaves me with questions. I can't tell is this is theory or not. "If bootlegs had not invaded the US market place in stores and online prior to the announcement Celestial were releasing the Shaw Brothers films, the events happening now, deals being made for Shaw and other films by US companies, would have occurred years ago. Had the titles not been devalued from years of bootlegs and recent DVD bootleg releases, Tai Seng would have made a deal for the whole package." Linn makes a good argument for why this this could be true, but it's stated as fact, and I just wonder what the evidence is. Did Tai Seng say that was the reason they didn't make that deal? Maybe they did, I just would like to see it. Not to doubt Linn's veracity, but it sounds a little anecdotal to me.

"In a market sense it's like this, what is the worth of something that everyone has? Not a lot. What is the worth of something no one has? Priceless." I understand this totally. But it seems like it's a business decision not to release a movie that's been heavily bootlegged. At what point is a release bootlegged enough to not be legitimately released? Wouldn't packaging and placement in more stores do a lot to offset the bootlegging problem? Doesn't MediaBlasters have a far wider distribution net than PanMedia could ever hope for? Not to mention people like me who will ditch their PanMedia for a legit release whenever they get released.

"This is the reason why you see these bootleg boxsets of Video Asia titles now, because they won't buy the titles again. But if they put them in a boxset under a new title with a cheaper overall price, you've got a new product! This is also why you get DVD labels you don't take the films seriously and won't spend money on making the best product. If you expect to not sell many copies from the start, why would you work hard on a release?" I don't understand this point. Wouldn't you put as much effort as you could, in order to sell more copies? What does the repackaging of these Video Asia titles have to do with that? Who thinks those are great releases? Say I buy Video Asia release if there's no other way to see From China With Death. That doesn't mean I think it's a good product. I just want to see the film. But if a even slightly decent legit release came out, I would snap it up. Someone who wants to own From China With Death at all, would like to own a decent copy of it. If you can release a version of a movie that advertises that it looks great and has decent supplemental material, anyone who wants to own that title, even if they have an old shitty version, will buy the legit one, right? Why wouldn't they? If we're talking about uneducated consumers, why the hell would they be looking for From China With Death in the first place? I had to do research to find out I wanted to see that film!

"We live in a period where the Internet gives bootleggers instant info and access to everything they need to make product that looks just like a legit releases." I don't think this is even kind of true. I have yet to see a PanMedia release that looked like a studio release.

"It also gives fans the chance to have info on these releases and to choose what they support with their money. By these films being put out by legit (or semi-legit) distributors into legit stores and malls, they take up whatever space could be used by actual legit releases. This in turn makes the likelihood of legit releases less and less." I need figures to adequately judge the problem here. How many legit stores are we talking about? I've never seen PanMedia's stuff in a Best Buy or a Wall-Mart. Amazon only sells them third-party, right? Aren't those the biggest video retailers on earth? Surely MediaBlasters would have them beat in terms of market saturation, right?

"When a bootleg company can put out a dvd and have it in store selling for seven dollars; but a legit company can't get in the same store selling legit $12 DVDs of titles they've hunted down the rights for, the materials, remastered, etc., that's also a problem." I totally understand this argument. But, if this legit company has the rights to this film, why in the name of god do they not sue PanMedia? I've heard "it's too expensive", but again that sounds purely anecdotal. If you have a case, surely you would get some serious coin off of a company that was selling your property? And if they don't have a case, why is that? Are these releases not "illegal" like we keep repeating?

"Bootleggers are the reason why you haven't gotten what you wanted, yet you still take up for them like they're some kind of old friend." While I still don't see proof that these companies are the REASON we don't get the releases we want, I certainly am not under the impression that PanMedia gives two shits about these movies. I understand they are doing it for money, but so are the other companies that made the business decision NOT to go after PanMedia, or NOT to release a legitimate release to compete. I am not deluding myself into thinking that PanMedia is some kind of savior. They are a crappy means to an end.

"But why knowingly support people who do nothing but make money off the hardwork and effort of others by stealing transfers, soundtracks, subtitles, dubs, sometimes entire releases, etc." I'm sorry, but if I limited myself to buying art that hadn't screwed someone, I'd never see another film ever again. While I think it makes sense to take into consideration the ethics of a company when giving them money, I am not sure it as simple as some make it seem.

"Then turn right around and screw the fans at every turn by undercutting companies that want to release the films makes no sense. I can understand wanting to see the films, but when you can trade for ANYTHING you want, it's defeating the idea of even being a fan of the films IMO to support people you know are putting out bootlegs that ruin your chances of seeing real releases." I don't see how trading is any better. The argument is this:

Consumer 1 wants to own Film X.
PanMedia releases a bootleg of Film X for 5 bucks.
Consumer 1 buys PanMedia's Film X.
MediaBlasters releases legit version of Film X for 10 bucks.
Consumer 1 won't buy MediaBlasters' Film X because he already has PanMedia's bootleg.

I don't buy that, but let's assume that is fact. Then:

Consumer 1 wants to own Film X.
Consumer 1 trades with friend for copy of Film X.
MediaBlasters releases legit version of Film X for 10 bucks.
Consumer 1 won't buy MediaBlasters' Film X because he already has copy.

How is that any better? People make the distinction BECAUSE they know that if Consumer 1 has a copy from a friend, they WILL buy MediaBlaster's version when it comes out. Why wouldn't someone who bought a boot do the same thing? My point is, they would.

Again, I do think Linn makes a lot of good points, but I'm not sure the argument is airtight gospel.

Legit releases of these films (especially with tracked down english dubs etc.) will fair just as well as if the boots provided by Pan Media existed or not. People devoted or interested in this genre don't care. They'll obtain the best quality version of these films that are released. Regardless of the order by which, or by who, releases them.

This, I think, is my perspective. It seems to me, barring evidence (which may exist, I just can't find it) legit releases will do just as well regardless of PanMedia's involvement. PanMedia certainly must cut into their business somewhat, but I don't think it can be solely blamed for rare films never seeing the authorized light of day. This certainly fits into my experience. I have to search and search before I buy a PanMedia release, and I don't do it lightly. I have never stumbled upon a PanMedia release, even in my younger more ignorant, unsavvy days, and bought it on a whim. While I don't doubt this happens, I can't imagine it's an epidemic, and I certainly haven't seen evidence to this. I just keep hearing anecdotal evidence (though sometime supported by well-reasoned arguments, such as Linn's). I just don't think the issue is SO simple that it's fair for people to spew invectives, nor should PanMedia be seen as the scapegoat for why companies don't release the material we want.

niro

03-04-2009, 08:30 PM

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 09:55 PM

Killer Meteor

03-04-2009, 10:04 PM

What is the big difference, as you see it?

Because, as has been constantly explained to you, the mere listing of these boots, regardless of how they sell, on store databases, means there's less incentive for the stores to carry the later, legit dvd. Stores are happy to have a gazillion James Bond DVDs on the shelves because they sell. But if their allocated kung fu space is jammed with boots, that's space that's been unfarily taken

And Bobo, the reason we disagree with you is that you are a disrespectful idiot

Bravery

03-04-2009, 10:12 PM

Trading is done by fans who know what they are looking for and what they want, yes i agree that people trading assume that when a legit version comes out for the film they have just traded that person will go buy it, and obviously not everyone would do that.

But there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between private trading and sale of bootlegs in stores and that has been explained by Linn.

No, there is not a BIG DIFFERENCE, as you suggest. The problem with panmedia is that there distribution of boots hurt the legit companies bottom line. How does trading not also do the same? dont answer, its rhetorical.

It is not like it was 10-15 when trading consisted of crappy Ocean Shore prints or a terrible copy of House of Traps. People are trading Dragon Dynasty, people are trading Hong Kong Legends, people are trading Celestial. How is it that this helps there bottom line? It doesn't, it hurts even more so than then the Panmedia boots in stores, because most fans feel that trading is not wrong. It still does the same thing in essence; these companies are not making a dime off of trading, which is seen as not stealing, but it is.

If you buy a DVD and you place it on bit torrent that is piracy, torrents are a form of trading. Coming onto a forum looking to trade is piracy, the only difference I can deduce from any complaints againts Panmedia is that this particular company is making a profit. So now it is no longer an issue of morals, which is what some people here pretend it to be, but of a long held disdain towards this company.

Hatred because they make money off of this? So if Panmedia started giving these away instead of selling them, would there be a different feeling of it all? Not rhetorical , I actually would like an answer from the "anti-bootleg" establishment, who seems to like to call people names for not feeling as they do. Now if panmedia were giving them away would it no longer be an issue?

BCI, which is the most often mentioned company in these threads lately, was hurt not only because of panmedia, but also because of the backwards legitimacy of trading. I believe most people complain about this because they are use to it.

Remember, TRADING IS PIRACY, let us call it what it is, there is no way around it. It is against the law. Selling bootlegs in the store, is illegal as well, but too many people like to skate over the actual factuals that trading also hurt these companies.

If you talk to the owners of the Legit companies and ask them how they feel about people giving away their material and selling. I'm almost certain they would say it is equally wrong. The only difference is the actual bootlegers profit. Hell, there are sales of legitimate DVD's on this site and no one is complaining that people should buy the original from the companies because they are not seeing a prifit, which in turn is hurting future releases. These legit companies know of trading, so it isn't like it is some secret that they don't know of. They know it exists as well as in store distribution.

When someone like DeathStrike asks a question about this topic, people act as if there aren't reasons for it and he is a moron for asking. Answer the question of why some piracy is okay when others are not?

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 10:31 PM

Because, as has been constantly explained to you...

Seriously, I don't think you need to be nasty about it. I'm not sure what I have done that is worthy of your disrespect. Secondly, that question was NOT directed to you, as I made clear.

...the mere listing of these boots, regardless of how they sell, on store databases, means there's less incentive for the stores to carry the later, legit dvd.

Even if we accept this as fact (which I am not necessarily doing), this still does not MEAN that people buying PanMedia discs PREVENTS legit releases from existing. There is less incentive, perhaps. But the decision of whether or not to create a DVD can't come simply and solely down to whether some, not ALL, stores already have PanMedia discs. The blame can't be laid simply at PanMedia-et-al.'s feet, can it?

Stores are happy to have a gazillion James Bond DVDs on the shelves because they sell. But if their allocated kung fu space is jammed with boots, that's space that's been unfarily taken

"Jammed with boots"? Based on what? I don't doubt that your hyperbole is accurate, but I would like to see numbers on how prevalent PanMedia and the like's presence is. Also, if a company releases something that NO ONE ELSE is legally claiming the rights to, how is that unfair? If they are claiming the legal rights, I would like to know.

And Bobo, the reason we disagree with you is that you are a disrespectful idiot

This sounds EXCEEDINGLY disrespectful to me. And I don't agree with Bobo.

chen lung

03-04-2009, 10:38 PM

I don't have a problem with trading something that's rare and doesn't induce profit. I want to buy legit versions if they are good (especially out of fairness as it's only right). I can see some people asking "What's wrong with it if no-one else has released it?", but to try and sum it up:

PanMedia are profiting from it and a situation to demonstrate they don't care is when they bootleg something that already is available ('Ninja In Ancient China', '7 Grand Masters', 'Flash Point', 'Tom Yum Goong'). A similar example is: Instead of letting Media Blasters release legit versions with access to better sources, they decide to release their vastly inferior ones that forced MB to cancel. It seems stores tend to take the cheaper versions (also not realising that they're illegal). Shelf space is difficult and more so if someone else comes along with the same film, leaving slim success in sales and the likes.

If PanMedia's selfish attitude continues, we will not see any distributor get access to prints and the likes as it's a risk if something's out already. They merely see that these films sell and they do not pay for licensing either, just to obnoxiously release them with little care for quality. They may appear cheap and quickly buyable, but they are destroying the genre.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 10:41 PM

No, there is not a BIG DIFFERENCE, as you suggest. The problem with panmedia is that there distribution of boots hurt the legit companies bottom line. How does trading not also do the same? dont answer, its rhetorical.

It is not like it was 10-15 when trading consisted of crappy Ocean Shore prints or a terrible copy of House of Traps. People are trading Dragon Dynasty, people are trading Hong Kong Legends, people are trading Celestial. How is it that this helps there bottom line? It doesn't, it hurts even more so than then the Panmedia boots in stores, because most fans feel that trading is not wrong. It still does the same thing in essence; these companies are not making a dime off of trading, which is seen as not stealing, but it is.

If you buy a DVD and you place it on bit torrent that is piracy, torrents are a form of trading. Coming onto a forum looking to trade is piracy, the only difference I can deduce from any complaints againts Panmedia is that this particular company is making a profit. So now it is no longer an issue of morals, which is what some people here pretend it to be, but of a long held disdain towards this company.

Hatred because they make money off of this? So if Panmedia started giving these away instead of selling them, would there be a different feeling of it all? Not rhetorical , I actually would like an answer from the "anti-bootleg" establishment, who seems to like to call people names for not feeling as they do. Now if panmedia were giving them away would it no longer be an issue?

BCI, which is the most often mentioned company in these threads lately, was hurt not only because of panmedia, but also because of the backwards legitimacy of trading. I believe most people complain about this because they are use to it.

Remember, TRADING IS PIRACY, let us call it what it is, there is no way around it. It is against the law. Selling bootlegs in the store, is illegal as well, but too many people like to skate over the actual factuals that trading also hurt these companies.

If you talk to the owners of the Legit companies and ask them how they feel about people giving away their material and selling. I'm almost certain they would say it is equally wrong. The only difference is the actual bootlegers profit. Hell, there are sales of legitimate DVD's on this site and no one is complaining that people should buy the original from the companies because they are not seeing a prifit, which in turn is hurting future releases. These legit companies know of trading, so it isn't like it is some secret that they don't know of. They know it exists as well as in store distribution.

When someone like DeathStrike asks a question about this topic, people act as if there aren't reasons for it and he is a moron for asking. Answer the question of why some piracy is okay when others are not?

I don't think I can find anything you say that I disagree with. Thank you for your thoughts!

My main questions still are about the illegality of PanMedia's discs. I don't have a problem with people seeing it as immoral, I just want to know the legality of it. If no one is challenging their rights to these films, is it illegal? Also, does BCI flat out claim that PanMedia discs are the REASON they don't release legit versions? Surely there must be other, even more prevalent reasons? I mean, DVD business, and the economy in general is shit right now.

Also, it's DeathShrike. :)

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 10:44 PM

No, there is not a BIG DIFFERENCE, as you suggest. The problem with panmedia is that there distribution of boots hurt the legit companies bottom line. How does trading not also do the same? dont answer, its rhetorical.

Oh! One more thought. I think it is key what you say about "the bottom line". This is what companies care about. It seems to me that the PanMedia issue is not so much about morals, but about economics.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 10:47 PM

I don't have a problem with trading something that's rare and doesn't induce profit. I want to buy legit versions if they are good (especially out of fairness as it's only right). I can see some people asking "What's wrong with it if no-one else has released it?", but to try and sum it up:

PanMedia are profiting from it and a situation to demonstrate they don't care is when they bootleg something that already is available ('Ninja In Ancient China', '7 Grand Masters', 'Flash Point', 'Tom Yum Goong'). A similar example is: Instead of letting Media Blasters release legit versions with access to better sources, they decide to release their vastly inferior ones that forced MB to cancel. It seems stores tend to take the cheaper versions (also not realising that they're illegal). Shelf space is difficult and more so if someone else comes along with the same film, leaving slim success in sales and the likes.

But... those films all did get legitimate releases. I own all of them.

Markgway

03-04-2009, 10:48 PM

Bravery

03-04-2009, 10:53 PM

My bad on the name, lol. Why Deathshrike instead of strike :o

But, to your question of the legality of it all, it is illegal. They are bootlegging DVD's that others own the rights to. It's just one of those "if a tree falls in the forrest questions"; in this situation the companies aren't making a sound. At least not the proper sounds through the proper channels. Panmedia is a cop out for the entire issue of companies folding under. They are one reason, but not the only reason and I don't believe the biggest reason. It's all about profit and panmedia cut into it, but they werent alone. Some of the people calling you names have probaby traded for a BCI disc, if not, they have certainly traded for a movie that is easilly accessible for legit purchase.

But as for this issue, you'll learn that a lot of people resort to name calling, and saying others are idiots for asking questions when there answer is to blame panmedia for everything.

I get and understand the trading argument, but it is just as old as buying boots, and just as illegal. Buying boots, and trading comes down to habit and hypocrisy, which a lot of people don't understand. They pick the lesser of the evil or in this case the more exceptable of evils.

chen lung

03-04-2009, 11:03 PM

But... those films all did get legitimate releases. I own all of them.
They did, but PanMedia released their own bootlegs too (before or after the legal ones).

For instance, Ninja In Ancient China: Greenfan (http://www.greenfandvd.com/shop/niac.htm) (legit), PanMedia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250382350629) (stolen).

Infact, you could search through this Ebay Store (http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Digital-Vision-DVD) for any title and you'll find it there.

Bravery

03-04-2009, 11:05 PM

Oh! One more thought. I think it is key what you say about "the bottom line". This is what companies care about. It seems to me that the PanMedia issue is not so much about morals, but about economics.

It is a bottom line issue, at the top the only thing these heads care about is profit. If it is eating into there profit they don't like it.

The reason I bring up morals is because most here who call names are doing so under the context of feeling that SUPPORTING panmedia is what is wrong, in turn it becomes a bootleg issue that they (pretend to?) care about. If people cared about supporting these companies like they say, they wouldn't trade or buy a release under the lie of "when a better releas comes out i'll get it" story.

There are a lot of reasons for companies folding, releasing a bare bones 20 year old kung fu movie is not going to turn much of a profit. This is a cult genre, if they are not listening to the fans they are not going to sell.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:13 PM

But, to your question of the legality of it all, it is illegal. They are bootlegging DVD's that others own the rights to. It's just one of those "if a tree falls in the forrest questions"; in this situation the companies aren't making a sound. At least not the proper sounds through the proper channels. Panmedia is a cop out for the entire issue of companies folding under. They are one reason, but not the only reason and I don't believe the biggest reason. It's all about profit and panmedia cut into it, but they werent alone. Some of the people calling you names have probaby traded for a BCI disc, if not, they have certainly traded for a movie that is easilly accessible for legit purchase.

Understood. I guess my question becomes, why don't companies sue? Surely there would be money in it, as unlike "traders", PanMedia makes money off their piracy. This is all interesting.

But as for this issue, you'll learn that a lot of people resort to name calling, and saying others are idiots for asking questions when there answer is to blame panmedia for everything.

I get and understand the trading argument, but it is just as old as buying boots, and just as illegal. Buying boots, and trading comes down to habit and hypocrisy, which a lot of people don't understand. They pick the lesser of the evil or in this case the more exceptable of evils.

I've bought PanMedia discs, AND I've traded for movies I couldn't find elsewhere. I'm not about to claim I'm doing the "right thing". I just feel, like you, it's ridiculous to blame PanMedia for our problems.

My bad on the name, lol. Why Deathshrike instead of strike :o

LOL. I used to use The Shrike (a bird that impales it's prey on thorns or barbed wire, OR alternatively, a main time-traveling, four-armed killing machine from the Hyperion science fiction novels by Dan Simmons), but it kept being already taken at various online sites. Eventually I gave up, and tried to think of a "bad ass" word I could combine with it. I'm pleased with DeathShrike, but I do get DeathSTRIKEd a lot!

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:14 PM

They did, but PanMedia released their own bootlegs too (before or after the legal ones).

Right. But MediaBlasters made money off their discs, right? PanMedia didn't prevent them from seeing profit, right?

chen lung

03-04-2009, 11:17 PM

PanMedia are the problem, they are the ones lessening the chances for distributors to release products.

chen lung

03-04-2009, 11:20 PM

Right. But MediaBlasters made money off their discs, right? PanMedia didn't prevent them from seeing profit, right?
Media Blasters never released the Angela Mao and Jimmy Wang Yu films because PanMedia knew of such plans and released their crap. That's how pathetic they are.

EDIT: If you're referring to one title they did get out, PanMedia decided to copy and release it instead of leaving Media Blasters alone who put money and care into it.

Bravery

03-04-2009, 11:22 PM

Understood. I guess my question becomes, why don't companies sue? Surely there would be money in it, as unlike "traders", PanMedia makes money off their piracy. This is all interesting.

I've bought PanMedia discs, AND I've traded for movies I couldn't find elsewhere. I'm not about to claim I'm doing the "right thing". I just feel, like you, it's ridiculous to blame PanMedia for our problems.

LOL. I used to use The Shrike (a bird that impales it's prey on thorns or barbed wire, OR alternatively, a main time-traveling, four-armed killing machine from the Hyperion science fiction novels by Dan Simmons), but it kept being already taken at various online sites. Eventually I gave up, and tried to think of a "bad ass" word I could combine with it. I'm pleased with DeathShrike, but I do get DeathSTRIKEd a lot!

Why the don't sue or get the courts to order a junction to shut panmedia out of legit stores? That is the $64,000 question. I wondered it for a while until I decided that if they don't care, why should I. I've known people who have taken others to court over copyright issues, and their companies are not 'worth the money that Dragon Dynasty's is. They didn't even have to attend the hearing, the lawyer went for them.

Buying boots and trading for me is not about right or wrong. For me the issue is about hypocrisy, which on this issue you, DeatSHRIKE, don't seem to be, just curious about this issue, which has been discussed repeatedly on end, especially when Panmedia is brought up.

Thanks for telling me about The Shrike, I learn something new everyday.

Also, as you have noticed, people are picking and choosing which form of piracy is okay, and for them, it comes down to panmedia making a profit. Not what is stopping the legit companies from making money to put out future releases and the fact that they are not doing anything to stop it. Also, any DVD that Media Blasters owns the rights to, hkflix will not sale in the U.S. They could also do the same with FYE.

Telling FYE of Panmedia, and informing them they are selling pirated goods makes them liable. Continuing to sell pirated material is a federal crime. FYE can't sfford that kind of heat.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:25 PM

It is a bottom line issue, at the top the only thing these heads care about is profit. If it is eating into there profit they don't like it.

The reason I bring up morals is because most here who call names are doing so under the context of feeling that SUPPORTING panmedia is what is wrong, in turn it becomes a bootleg issue that they (pretend to?) care about. If people cared about supporting these companies like they say, they wouldn't trade or buy a release under the lie of "when a better releas comes out i'll get it" story.

There are a lot of reasons for companies folding, releasing a bare bones 20 year old kung fu movie is not going to turn much of a profit. This is a cult genre, if they are not listening to the fans they are not going to sell.

I agree with all you say. Although (side note), I do, and have done what you say is a lie: I can name MANY movies I bought boots of, and have since purchased legit versions. Fearless, Azumi, Tom Yum Goong, spring to mind.

Here's my thought experiment: King Hu's 1966 masterpiece, Dragon Gate Inn. Every legit copy has been sold. You can't buy it NEW anywhere. They are all out of print. Dragon Tiger Gate is a masterful work of art, that deserves to be seen. The only way to see it, is trade for it, download it, or buy PanMedia's version. I chose the latter. Why is that any more immoral than the other options? My conclusion? It isn't. I may not be "right" but it is no more or less right than the other choices.

And I'm not sorry. That movie is incredible.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:26 PM

Why the don't sue or get the courts to order a junction to shut panmedia out of legit stores? That is the $64,000 question. I wondered it for a while until I decided that if they don't care, why should I. I've known people who have taken others to court over copyright issues, and their companies are not 'worth the money that Dragon Dynasty's is. They didn't even have to attend the hearing, the lawyer went for them.

Buying boots and trading for me is not about right or wrong. For me the issue is about hypocrisy, which on this issue you, DeatSHRIKE, don't seem to be, just curious about this issue, which has been discussed repeatedly on end, especially when Panmedia is brought up.

Thanks for telling me about The Shrike, I learn something new everyday.

It's the circle of life. Cheers. :)

chen lung

03-04-2009, 11:28 PM

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:30 PM

Get a DVD-R of it.

Speaking of the film 'Dragon Tiger Gate' (the Donnie Yen film), they bootlegged that too despite Tai Seng releasing a great DVD.

I don't think anyone is arguing buying a bootleg when a legit is readily available. Also, a DVD-R of it is still stealing.

Bravery

03-04-2009, 11:32 PM

Media Blasters never released the Angela Mao and Jimmy Wang Yu films because PanMedia knew of such plans and released their crap. That's how pathetic they are.

EDIT: If you're referring to one title they did get out, PanMedia decided to copy and release it instead of leaving Media Blasters alone who put money and care into it.

This would make panmedia one of the most powerful men on the planet. Being able to dictate what a legit company does with there legit releases, I question that? There have to be more to the reason why Media Blasters are not releasing certain films, not some shitty bootleg company.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:35 PM

This would make panmedia one of the most powerful men on the planet. Being able to dictate what a legit company does with there legit releases, I question that? There have to be more to the reason why Media Blasters are not releasing certain films, not some shitty bootleg company.

OK, here's my question for you now... Why is there all this hate for PanMedia? Setting aside the issues that you and I have concluded are false, what did I miss that PanMedia has done to earn this? What happened long ago to piss off people so bad that they are singled out?

chen lung

03-04-2009, 11:37 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing buying a bootleg when a legit is readily available.
I just happened to mention the film because it was a typo in your post.

Also, a DVD-R of it is still stealing.
Yes, and true, no-one can help that as it's out of print. However, the point is not supporting a company that steals and profits that legit companies won't stand a chance releasing a better version. If a legit one does come out after, then get that if you wish to be fair.

I don't agree with "Buy a bootleg then buy the legit" as that just sends the wrong signals.

Bravery

03-04-2009, 11:43 PM

OK, here's my question for you now... Why is there all this hate for PanMedia? Setting aside the issues that you and I have concluded are false, what did I miss that PanMedia has done to earn this? What happened long ago to piss off people so bad that they are singled out?

Years ago when kung fu fandom existed on another server, there was a member known as far east pirate aka stiller aka the bootleg king lol. He did some dirty shit that members will never condone. He worked with people and befriended people who were going to release certain DVDs and then screwed them over by stealing their hard work, causing them to say screw this about future releases. Mind you, all this was before the celestial boom, if I remember right, so there were not better releases of the titles. People are still pissed about this and there are other things he did, but that was the worse.
There are details that I don't remember, but this is basically it.

He basically steals others hard work.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:48 PM

I just happened to mention the film because it was a typo in your post.

Gotcha. My bad.

Yes, and true, no-one can help that as it's out of print. However, the point is not supporting a company that steals and profits that legit companies won't stand a chance releasing a better version.

Why wouldn't they stand a chance? Legit companies have a lot more access to stores than PanMedia ever would. Legit companies have access to special features and re-mastering technologies that PanMedia couldn't on their own. Don't most people here buy the legit versions over PanMedia? That sounds like they have a great chance. I'm sure MB's titles FAR outsell PanMedia's knockoffs, don't they?

I don't agree with "Buy a bootleg then buy the legit" as that just sends the wrong signals.

The "wrong signals"? It shows people want to buy this title! The legit companies still get their money if people end up buying the legit one, right?

Bravery

03-04-2009, 11:49 PM

I just happened to mention the film because it was a typo in your post.

Yes, and true, no-one can help that as it's out of print. However, the point is not supporting a company that steals and profits that legit companies won't stand a chance releasing a better version. If a legit one does come out after, then get that if you wish to be fair.

I don't agree with "Buy a bootleg then buy the legit" as that just sends the wrong signals.

Not to be argumentative, but the trading of a release also sends the wrong idea, trades are done with out of print as well as in print releases. Now, I don't have a problem with trading, I just think it is not right to pretend as though it is not equally as wrong. It does stop a company from making a profit. People were trading HKL titles while they were still in business. It didn't start after they shut down.

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:50 PM

Years ago when kung fu fandom existed on another server, there was a member known as far east pirate aka stiller aka the bootleg king lol. He did some dirty shit that members will never condone. He worked with people and befriended people who were going to release certain DVDs and then screwed them over by stealing their hard work, causing them to say screw this about future releases. Mind you, all this was before the celestial boom, if I remember right, so there were not better releases of the titles. People are still pissed about this and there are other things he did, but that was the worse.
There are details that I don't remember, but this is basically it.

He basically steals others hard work.

Sure. Does this prick work for PanMedia now, is that the issue?

Bravery

03-04-2009, 11:51 PM

That prick is panmedia, lol.XD

DeathShrike

03-04-2009, 11:51 PM

That prick is panmedia, lol.XD

LOL

Bravery

03-04-2009, 11:57 PM

A lot of people here form friendships with certain people, and this little message board is like a little disfunctional family. So when you screw over a family member who is trying to bring a little happiness with releases that would have been the ultimate releases, with everything a fan would want, it pisses them off.

And people may not admit it, but it is the fact that he screwed over there friends. That is all. It is not about bootlegging or trading it is about panmedia repeatedly screwing over there friends. Which we all agree is completely fucked

Bravery

03-05-2009, 12:00 AM

It has been a fun disussion, but now i'm hungry. Be easy deathshrike

dragonherb

03-05-2009, 12:00 AM

exli6rGldBc

DeathShrike

03-05-2009, 12:08 AM

It has been a fun disussion, but now i'm hungry. Be easy deathshrike

I feel like I understand everything a lot better now. Later.

HAZ

03-05-2009, 12:10 AM

Here's my thought experiment: King Hu's 1966 masterpiece, Dragon Gate Inn. Every legit copy has been sold. You can't buy it NEW anywhere. They are all out of print. Dragon Tiger Gate is a masterful work of art, that deserves to be seen. The only way to see it, is trade for it, download it, or buy PanMedia's version. I chose the latter. Why is that any more immoral than the other options? My conclusion? It isn't. I may not be "right" but it is no more or less right than the other choices.

And I'm not sorry. That movie is incredible.

I don't know if that your choice is any more immoral, but my PM copy of Dragon Tiger Gate went bad. lol. The German DVD that they booted it from was of better quality. That was a dvd-9 that they shrunk to a dvd-5. I'd prefer to trade for it or DL it for that reason, if I couldn't buy a copy.

chen lung

03-05-2009, 12:12 AM

Sure. Does this prick work for PanMedia now, is that the issue?
Jack Stiller seems to have others doing PanMedia stuff.

Not to be argumentative, but the trading of a release also sends the wrong idea, trades are done with out of print as well as in print releases. Now, I don't have a problem with trading, I just think it is not right to pretend as though it is not equally as wrong. It does stop a company from making a profit. People were trading HKL titles while they were still in business. It didn't start after they shut down.
I'm not a fan of trading, but I would do it for a rare film with no money made. If a legit one came out, I'd buy it.

Why wouldn't they stand a chance? Legit companies have a lot more access to stores than PanMedia ever would. Legit companies have access to special features and re-mastering technologies that PanMedia couldn't on their own. Don't most people here buy the legit versions over PanMedia? That sounds like they have a great chance. I'm sure MB's titles FAR outsell PanMedia's knockoffs, don't they?
Actually, it seems if PanMedia get there first, then it makes it hard for anyone else to because the store's usually after the cheaper one (being PanMedia). If both are on the shelf, the average customer will chose the cheaper one. It's really a risk.

The "wrong signals"? It shows people want to buy this title! The legit companies still get their money if people end up buying the legit one, right?
When I say "the wrong signals", I meant on the fact the bootlegger still profits and it can encourage others to do so. The distributor struggles to compete with something that shouldn't even be there and from there, it leads to stuff not being released and then we won't see things at all - better versions, footage from archives, etc where only legit distributors have the key.

To people's benefit if they get a DVD-R (instead of PanMedia's), they wouldn't have to buy twice if they got the legit one AND as HAZ says, it has less chance of breaking down as PM use crap methods of authoring. A DVD-R is a lesser evil in such cases.

The Amazing Psycho Per

03-05-2009, 12:36 AM

What is your interpretation of this paragraph?

Original French text:
Comptant sur le fait que RCP a acquis sans leur dire une licence d’exploitation auprès des japonais et que leur accord de principe tiendra lieu de contrat de licence, Déclic publie les DVD, mettant tout le monde sur le fait accompli. Sauf que… il s’avère que RCP n’a jamais eu les droits de Goldorak.

Google's Translation:
Counting on the fact that RCP has to say without an operating license from the Japanese and their agreement in principle will be the licensing contract, Declic DVD releases, putting everyone on a fait accompli. Except that ... it appears that RCP has never had the rights Goldorak.

This makes it sound, to me, like DI was using some legal wiggle room to drag the case out. In PanMedia's case, they couldn't claim AT ALL that they had the rights to these movies in ANY capacity, could they? My point is just that it doesn't look quite as simple as a theoretical case against PanMedia would be. Somebody mentioned that MediaBlasters got HKFLIX to stop selling the PanMedia Five Element Ninja. If they had enough time and money to get on HKFLIX's case, why couldn't they actually go after PanMedia? I'm just wondering if it's because the legal water is muddier than we realize.
Reply With Quote

Ok, I feel we are running a separate thread, but what the hell, the thread it's so ridiculously long now...

FYI Deanthstrike:

You have to read the whole page. DI were counting on the fact that RCP had acquired the rights in secrets to release the DVDs themself, and that their former agreement would serve as a legal contract of licence. BUT after that, while they were already in the legal procedures against Toei for the piracy of their materials, they continued to issue the remaining boxset, in full knowledge of the cause, and were later forced to take the DVDs off the market. So no at some point they coudn't claim AT ALL, they had the rights, IF at some point in the process they "thought" they could.

By the way, google traductor is pretty bad... ;)

I don't know but this as to be some record of the longest thread in the smallest time...:p

Gaijin84

03-05-2009, 02:42 AM

Telling FYE of Panmedia, and informing them they are selling pirated goods makes them liable. Continuing to sell pirated material is a federal crime. FYE can't sfford that kind of heat.

Further than not buying PanMedia releases, wouldn't it also make sense not to support stores that sell PanMedia and other bootlegs? I have a feeling that unfortunately that would eliminate almost every store out there, but that would certainly send a message.

Stiller (i think aka stiller66) was on ebay for years, but I think he's switched up his name?

Killer Meteor

03-05-2009, 02:07 PM

Further than not buying PanMedia releases, wouldn't it also make sense not to support stores that sell PanMedia and other bootlegs? I have a feeling that unfortunately that would eliminate almost every store out there, but that would certainly send a message.

Stiller (i think aka stiller66) was on ebay for years, but I think he's switched up his name?

I think at this stage its too little too late. It took a long time to see more than a trickle of decent martial arts DVDs in the States, and Panmedia should hold the blame for that.

Kwok Choi

03-05-2009, 02:10 PM

You won't believe if i say in our country every movie is booted!!I mean we don't have any real discs which were released by certain companies,instead they use stolen releases......................................Even our tvs don't buy rights of movies for showing them.They just buy regular dvds and broadcast,that's all.It looks funny right,but all i wrote here is true
I know this is true and it is not just in your country.In fact this happens in many countries.People I know who have been affected by this in my country of origin have been campaigning for the film companies to take note of lost revenue and do something about the demise of film and cinema in general.Greed is one of the main problems in this regard.The film companies would still want to charge an arm and a leg for rights in countries with low economies.What should happen is that the film companies should sell the theatrical rights/video/tv etc to one parent distributor or group of distributors at the rate of inflation for that particular country.Those parent companies depending on what they are - can even be individuals for that matter - should then take care of legit distribution and exhibition plus tv and video.Still there will be bootlegs of course but if the masses get good value for money from the theatrical experience then get almost the same type of enjoyment from kosher video / tv sources chances are the bootleggers will move on to something else but most times the filmakers are only concerned with revenue from certain territories and can't be bothered with the rest of the world;SHAME:shot themselves in the foot.Government authorities can't really legislate againt this because there is no tax benefit as the theatres have all gone out of business due to this menace and there are also no right holders to lobby in these countries.A whole new generation of 21 yr olds in most of these countries haven't seen 35mm prints in theatres and can only see movies in these countries on badly pirated dvds and tv stations thinking this is the norm as there are no other options.
Whats wrong if Warner Bros,Universal,Fox etc take control of this by building budget theatres thereby reviving the experience in these territories and also bring some sort of control with the product and still make bucket loads of money in the bargain but who cares?
Well this attitude has really killed films and cinemas in many countries and again thats a damn SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME.

HAZ

03-05-2009, 02:32 PM

I think at this stage its too little too late. It took a long time to see more than a trickle of decent martial arts DVDs in the States, and Panmedia should hold the blame for that.

The fans should hold some blame, too. There was a glut of stuff available in the last year or two - Fusian, Rarescope, Crash, DD, Media Blasters, etc... Panmedia aside, did these companies get much fan support? I saw people complain that about some of these releases - about how they're wen't digitally remastered, etc - but how many people actually bought anything? Fusian went belly up before they could even finsh releasing all their stuff as did rarescope. Threads about their dvd's were pretty dead, except for the complaints. If fans showed the same enthusiasm for those releases as they do about debating about panmedia, all of those companies would still be in business. Really, in this case, the fans have spoken. They're not interested in legit martial arts films being released. If they were, those companies mentioned above would have generated some interest.

DeathShrike

03-05-2009, 03:17 PM

The fans should hold some blame, too. There was a glut of stuff available in the last year or two - Fusian, Rarescope, Crash, DD, Media Blasters, etc... Panmedia aside, did these companies get much fan support? I saw people complain that about some of these releases - about how they're wen't digitally remastered, etc - but how many people actually bought anything? Fusian went belly up before they could even finsh releasing all their stuff as did rarescope. Threads about their dvd's were pretty dead, except for the complaints. If fans showed the same enthusiasm for those releases as they do about debating about panmedia, all of those companies would still be in business. Really, in this case, the fans have spoken. They're not interested in legit martial arts films being released. If they were, those companies mentioned above would have generated some interest.

Well, I KNOW that is not true in at least one case. Mine. I have bought a few PanMedia discs, and I have GRATEFULLY bought many legit releases from those companies. Fans can only buy one DVD, after all. What else should I have done?

Atherton

03-05-2009, 03:32 PM

http://www.tohogate.proboards49.com/index.cgi?board=myst&action=display&thread=1146

HAZ

03-05-2009, 03:37 PM

Well, I KNOW that is not true in at least one case. Mine. I have bought a few PanMedia discs, and I have GRATEFULLY bought many legit releases from those companies. Fans can only buy one DVD, after all. What else should I have done?

I don't think its about you. lol. Its just seem like fans who were enthusiastic about the releases we saw in the last couple of years were out-numbered by people who were largely indifferent.

DeathShrike

03-05-2009, 04:13 PM

I don't think its about you. lol. Its just seem like fans who were enthusiastic about the releases we saw in the last couple of years were out-numbered by people who were largely indifferent.

YES IT IS. IT IS ABOUT ME. :) People online bitch. That's all we do. We also bitch on other forums for other types of products that end up doing really well. I'm not sure how representative we are of the market in general.

Bravery

03-05-2009, 04:31 PM

Wait.Trading is illegal right?How about movies i can't find original ones?Yes if i try i can find for 30-40 $ but it's a huge money for me.
I buy joy sales dvds everytime.But i have to know quality before buying it.So i trade to see with my own eyes.After knowing it's good i buy.Because sometimes they release real shit!Can you say i'm doing wrong?
You won't believe if i say in our country every movie is booted!!I mean we don't have any real discs which were released by certain companies,instead they use stolen russian releases.Can you say those who buy them are ignorant bastards?They know they are buying bootleg.
Even our tvs don't buy rights of movies for showing them.They just buy regular dvds and broadcast,that's all.It looks funny right,but all i wrote here is true!

I've heard about this, didn't believe it, it sounded too funny to be true. I mean, showing crappy bootleg dvds over air waves sounds untrue. But, now thanks to your post, I do believe. But, please don't think that i'm bashing traders or saying anything remotely against it. It's just that I think that using panmedia as a scapegoat and blaming them solely for certain companies shutting down is irresponsible and ridiculous.

But, a lot of people use the argument you make about trading for buying boots: "I can't find a release and the one I found is too expensive", but this argument only becomes wrong for most people when the name panmedia is brought up, and that is my gripe. Trading one wrong for another in an attempt to sound high and mighty on an issue is, as i've stated, irresponsible. It is this hypocrisy that irritates me. And, for the record, your post is not hypocrisy. I look at them both the same way, i've done both, so what right do I have to judge someone else.

I just think that if people are going to say that bootlegging is wrong, then it should be wrong across the board, not just when panmedia is envolved. I buy bootlegs, have been doing so for almost 15 years, it didn't start with panmendia and as HAZ states it don't end with panmedia. I've stated that people don't support these companies, they complain about the most, to me, mundane issue of these releases.

Instead of supporting these companies and showing that fans are interested and appreciative of what they are trying to do, in return these companies would listen and try to do more. But, instead of supporting, people complain and in return these companies, such as Dragon Dynasty, decide to ignore the hard core and focus on the mainstream. Instead of supporting Dragon Dynasty releases, and buying every BCI kung fu release to show this support in hopes that the releases will eventually come with more extras and more of what fans want, which they would if fans would stop pretending to care and start actually caring.

But, the companies shut down and people hide solely behind panmedia instead of focusing on trying to stop all of what is hurting these releases. Are companies mad and shutting down because of panmedia, or because they're not making money, including the fans who said they'd show support, but then resorted to complaining about the releases.

These companies are also responsible in this, Dragon Dynasty DVDs are overpriced and in the stores i've seen panmedia next to Media Blasters, the prices have been the same 14.99. Also, the releases should not be bare bones, because most fans are not going to buy an American release, if it is not an improvement over the celestial they already own.

I have double dipped on Dragon Dynasty as well as Media Blasters, exchanging already owned releases for newer releases that really have no improvement over the releases I already own. How many fans do this, a lot resort to trading.

Now, ekisha, most people are not in you shoes, but they still don't show support for these companies. As far as people being ignorant, I don't think they are, just use to doing something that seems the norm. Buying bootlegs and trading these releases for most are just the norm, so imagine their delight when they walk into a store and see a movie they watched years ago on Blackbelt theater sitting on the shelves. Do you think they care if it says pan media, red sun or ass wipe? No, they'll pick it up regardless. Now if they're in a flea market, and they see a release they want they'll pick it up Same with trading, but people act as though it is not a problem.

Bravery

03-05-2009, 04:40 PM

Well at least i can say something about me.I spend 60% of my tiny salary to movies.I try to buy originals whenever i can.So i guess lot of guys are the same like me,we can't do anything.And i don't think PM should take all the blame too.

None of use can really do anything, it starts with the companies. They need to show more of an initiative with this. They treat these movies and the fans as if they don't matter, in return fans treat the releases as if they don't matter. This is mainly speaking of Dragon Dynasty, but the other companies as well could do more to shut panmedia out of the stores. But, if they do what will the fans on this forum do to show they are appreciative of the work involved in these releases. It is a two way street.

DeathShrike

03-05-2009, 05:29 PM

I have double dipped on Dragon Dynasty as well as Media Blasters, exchanging already owned releases for newer releases that really have no improvement over the releases I already own.

You know, I have done this too. I actually stuck with DD, when a lot of people were constantly bitching about them. This crap with The Enforcer finally crossed MY line. It really felt like I had been punched in the face.

Markgway

03-05-2009, 09:43 PM

I wish I had the money to buy every film I wanted to see. If anyone here does then they should consider themselves lucky. Sure I trade copies. Fans have been doing that since the dawn of VHS. But what I don't do is make any money out of it - nor do I give anyone else a profit. For me it's all about the films not business. If I see a film I like and there's a legally available edition I seek it out. I want it to sit proudly in my collection. The only copies I keep are of films that don't have a legal edition. Not only do Pan Media steal the work of others TO MAKE MONEY (that's their goal) but by putting these inferior discs into stores at a low cost (they have no overheads and so can charge very little and still profit) they discourage suppliers from accepting legit product. Many US-based stores will only stock one version of a title (usually the cheapest) and so IF and when a legit one comes along (naturally costlier) there's no insentive for said store to sell it. And the mass of people who bought the Pan Media disc aren't going to buy it again. Mostly they're ignorant but for some it's not financially viable to double or triple dip. Thus Pan Media beats legit companies to the punch and ruins the market. If the bickering posters here STILLLLL don't understand the situation then I honestly give up.

Koyuki

03-06-2009, 01:26 AM

Please forgive a lengthy post from a newbie. I’ve been reading this thread with interest, and I have some points to make that I think are relevant (I would have posted sooner, but registration got hung up somehow).

I’ve been reading and posting over at AnimeNewsNetwork.com for a few years now, and very nearly this same debate has been going on there regarding fansubs (anime episodes recorded from Japanese broadcasts, and uploaded to the internet with English subtitles added by unlicensed amateur groups), with many, many electrons being temporarily inconvenienced in columns, interviews, and forum posts. The main issue of that debate is the ability to watch new works as soon as possible vs. waiting for a legit DVD or TV release in the US, accompanied by the issues of the price difference between a HK bootleg and a legit DVD, and the availability of older works. One of the best explorations of the subject is the convention panel hosted by Greg Ayres, a voice actor who does a lot of work recording English dubs for legit DVD releases. Search youtube for ‘sogen con 2007’ for a recording of one of his panels – it’s about two hours long, divided into several sections. Some of it is anime-specific, but the larger issues are still relevant (Yes, I’m aware of the irony of watching an anti-bootleg panel on youtube). Like kung fu, anime is a niche market of overseas entertainment, of which only a small portion gets licensed in the US, and like kung fu, anime is a fandom that fifteen or so years ago was still primarily based in the trading of bootleg VHS tapes, but now has many more legal options available.

Something I haven’t seen referenced yet is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_an d_Artistic_Works

A basic recap – the Berne Convention requires that any signatory country grant copyright protection to all creative works immediately upon creation, with these rights belonging to the creator, or to whatever entity they sell those rights to. Any copy not licensed by the owner is thus considered illegal in the eyes of international law, regardless of whether or not the owner is actively attempting to profit from the work. Therefore, anyone who states that *any* non-licensed copy of any movie is illegal, immoral, and/or just plain wrong, does have some legal basis for that position (Please withhold any flames you’re contemplating until I’m done, thanks).

The creators, at any time during the duration of the copyright, can then license other parties to adapt and distribute the work, either worldwide, or by region or country. The licensor usually charges a fee per movie, plus a percentage of sales (aka royalties), and the licensee pays those costs, plus production costs, in the hope of making a profit selling that movie in their region. Any legit copy therefore generates income for the licensor, and thus encourages them to create new works, or to offer additional older works to be licensed. The licensing fees are then built into the purchase price of the legit DVDs, and paid by the consumer. Bootleggers avoid the middleman, and go right to selling copies, without asking or paying for the rights to do so. No money transfers back to the creator, and copies are able to be sold cheaper because of it. Some bootleggers even go so far as to simply rip the legit release, copying not just the original movie, but the subtitles, dub tracks, extras, etc., not to mention any audio of video restoration work done by the licensee or creator (I’ve seen several anime bootlegs that included the US release’s English dub track).

This, obviously, upsets the creators and the licensees. The licensee paid good money for the exclusive right to sell copies of “Bruce Lee’s Shaolin Legend of Eagle Fist vs. Dragon Fang” in North America, and every bootleg sold and every download streamed in their region is one less potential customer. Unfortunately, the US licensee can only go after the bootlegs that are in the US – to try to shut down the Asian sources of the bootlegs would require the original creator to find them and sue them, since the licensee only ‘owns’ the property within their licensed region. This gets tricky to do when crossing national borders, and doubly so if you’re talking about a country that has not signed the Berne Convention, or does not regularly enforce it. If it was just one or two bootleggers operating, it would be a simpler matter to close them down, but there’s too many of them operating, and since they’re somewhat shady to begin with, most of them don’t have a permanent enough presence to target legally. The US licensee can send cease and desist letters to US stores carrying bootlegs, ask Ebay to take down auctions of bootlegs, and ask youtube and other streamers to take down bootleg vids, but it’s like bailing the ocean with a teaspoon. Most companies just don’t have the time or manpower to search the web three times a day in search of bootleg versions of each of their titles, police every storefront in every big city’s Chinatown, let alone all the video gaming shops that carry a shelf or two of kung fu or anime DVDs. The bootlegs are ‘allowed’ to exist because it’s simply too hard to stamp them out.

Where most of the damage occurs is in the fact that most people watch most movies a grand total of once. Sure, I’ve got a rack of movies I keep coming back to, and I’ve even watched some titles every day for a solid month, but by and large, most of us will only watch a film once, and then it’s ‘been there, done that’. If it’s a stream or a bootleg that gets watched, then that’s one less potential customer for the legit DVD, and one less sale generating income for the licensee and the creator. This is bad enough for a new release, when demand is high, but it can be fatal to older releases. Since the older non-classic titles are already a niche market within a niche market, if you erode that market with bootlegs, the chances of being able to make a profit with a legit release diminish and the likelihood of a legit release even happening shrinks as well. To buy a bootleg of such a title on the grounds that ‘it’s not likely to be released anyhow’ is essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy. The arguments in here discounting the market diluting effect of a bootleg seem to be coming from serious collectors, who value the extras and the overall quality of a release, but most watchers will be the one-timers who don’t really know or care about such things.

The second round of damage comes from buyers who would be willing to pay for a copy, but shop exclusively based on price. Bootlegs are cheaper than legit discs, thus this buyer buys from the pirate, saving a little money, and telling himself that he can buy another title with the savings. For a little bit more, he could have gotten the legit disc, contributed some to the licensee and the creator, and helped ensure that there was another title to buy. Instead, his money went to a pirate who didn’t produce a thing, and never will. This is especially annoying when a shopkeeper knowingly puts the bootleg on the shelf next to the US release, or even sells dubs of downloads (I’ve seen both in anime shops). Just for a little extra self-delusion, some of these buyers think that by buying more titles, even as bootlegs, they’re somehow helping promote the genre. I never have figured out how they arrive at that answer. It can be hard to tell what’s a bootleg, depending on how much effort the pirate has put into his release. Hayao Miyazaki’s Studio Ghibli (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke) started putting holographic stickers on the legit Japanese releases – a short while later, bootlegs with a duplicate holographic sticker started turning up.

Used copies of legit releases don’t really enter into the equation, since a legit copy was bought to begin with, and (assuming he didn’t make and keep a copy) when the first buyer sold it, he lost his ability to watch it again. There’s still just one owner/watcher of that legit DVD. Creators and licensees would of course prefer that a new copy was bought, but there’s no real moral problem presented with buying used. Same with rentals – the rental company pays extra for the rights to rent titles to customers, so the creator and licensee still profit from the extra viewings. Some have argued here that selling or trading used legit copies deprives the distributor of income as much as a bootleg, and thus is equally bad. However, a legit copy was bought at the beginning, and that changes everything. By the same ‘used=bootleg’ argument, every used car lot in the country is depriving carmakers of income, selling houses deprives home builders of income, used clothing stores and church basement sales deprive third-world country kids in sweatshops of income, and let’s not even talk about public libraries. The selling and trading of used things happens, and most manufacturers accept that it’s part of the business, as long as they get that first sale. Their product may be getting passed around, but at least it’s *their* product. To look at it another way, when you buy a legit DVD, you purchase the rights to watch that title. When you sell the DVD, you sell the rights to watch that title. It’s not really any different than buying a ticket to a concert, realizing that you can’t go, and selling it to a friend who can.

One person mentioned that Shaw Brothers sometimes used music from other sources without permission, therefore engaging in piracy themselves, thus inviting a sort of bootleg karma effect. However, it was up to the copyright owner of the music to deal with Shaw Brothers at the time (the argument that two wrongs somehow makes a right doesn’t hold water for me), and it would be interesting to know if that’s a proven practice or a rumor, but I’m more interested in another copyright point it raises – music rights. Any music not written and produced for a particular film is the property of a different creator, and rights must be negotiated with the copyright owner to include it in the film. Rights must also be negotiated for the soundtrack album. Back to the table for the rights for the DVD release. Showing on TV? Negotiate again. What, you’d like to do all of those things in another country? Pull up a chair. Sometimes movies get songs replaced with others with more easily obtainable rights, other titles get hung up and never released simply because the music rights are too byzantine to navigate, and the specific songs are too woven into the movie to be replaced (In the US, copyright pretty much covers any American song written after 1923, even ‘Happy Birthday”).

The above is easy enough to follow for current releases and obvious classics, but what about the lesser and older titles? Where does one turn for hard to find titles? You’ve heard about the early classic ‘Gone with the Shaolin Wind’, and you really, really wish to see it. You check, and nobody has it currently licensed, nor seems likely to obtain the license any time soon. No previous legit release has happened, so no used copies. No legit editions are available from Asian importers, and they might not have English subs anyhow (and you don’t speak Cantonese/Mandarin). The title is effectively off the market… except for the pirated versions.

This is where things start getting fuzzy. The simplistic answer is that if there’s no legit version released in your region, you don’t watch it, period. From a strictly legal and moral standpoint, that is the correct answer. Watching whatever we want, wherever we want to is not a god-given birthright, some would say, and I certainly can’t argue with the thought. But, most of us aren’t so strong. We drive five miles an hour over the posted speed limit, without our seatbelts on. We sneak our own drinks into movie theaters. We rip tags off of mattresses. And, we’ll watch or buy the occasional bootleg.

A point to remember here is that the films were made so that the creators could charge people to watch them (NOT because they felt driven to create Art), so any attempt to watch them without directing payment to the creator is very arguably a form of theft. Any non-licensed copy is a violation of the Berne Convention and the laws of the signatory countries. This is all perfectly clear. The fuzziness comes in when the creators do not make themselves available to be paid. If a title is so unvalued by its creator that it has never been made available via legit means, or if the ownership has been transferred to unknown parties, what then?

Just as a side note, a title not valued now might not stay that way forever. The BBC used to routinely bulk erase and reuse old video tape – many of the masters for the early seasons of Dr. Who were destroyed in this fashion. “The Wizard of Oz” barely broke even during its 1939 theatrical run, not showing a real profit until a re-release a decade later. “It’s A Wonderful Life” was a forgotten B-movie until the 70’s, when the rights lapsed and TV stations began running it as a Christmas special. Art history is full of painters who couldn’t give their work away in life, but those same works sell for millions today. Sure, most of the unreleased HK back catalog titles are probably dreck that barely work as fodder for drinking games, but there could be hidden gems that the right release could raise to classic status, and be valuable to the rights owner. But, most of them are probably indeed drinking games, and won’t be released anytime soon, if ever.

Titles that genuinely are unlikely to be released in the US, or even Asia, are where downloads and bootlegs begin to be considered acceptable options (not right or moral or legal, but acceptable). Of the two, in a way I’d rather see someone download a title than buy a bootleg of the same title. It’s still a form of theft, but the pennies you generate for the streaming site for viewing their banner ad is a lot less than the dollars you’d be giving the bootlegger (I say ‘a form of theft’ because you’re consuming the product (watching the movie) without paying the owner for the right to do so. The argument was advanced earlier that bootlegging unreleased titles was OK since the owners ‘weren’t making money off of them anyways’, but this is like saying that someone who breaks into your house, and steals a bunch of stuff from your attic or basement ‘that you weren’t using anyways’ didn’t really commit a theft.). But first, did you really exhaust all possible searches for a legit release? Ebay? Netflix? Legit Asian imports (even with no subtitles)? “I’m looking for ‘X’ “ threads here? If a legit DVD is genuinely unfindable yet seems worth watching, that’s when most would say bootlegs are finally OK.

Downloads are where most people’s moral compasses really get all wiggly – few of us would march into a Best Buy or FYE, tuck a DVD under our shirt, and walk back out, but many might not think twice about downloading or duping the same title on the computer. “It’s just copying information, it’s not really stealing” is a common argument (A copy of a friend’s DVD or VHS is still a copy, but at least it’s a onesie-twosie copy, not a hundred-thousand copy internet download.). However, a creation of the mind like a film is property, even if it’s not a physical object, like a round piece of plastic we call a DVD. This is the concept that a lot of people don’t grasp, but it’s an important thing to learn. If you consume the product, you should at least try to pay for it, and to pay the right people.

I’ve left off a number of possible thoughts I could have followed – Greg Ayres covers them better than I could in the panel I mentioned at the top of this post, so I encourage you to check that out. He covers things like “I wasn’t going to buy it anyways, so downloading doesn’t really cost them a customer”, importing, reverse importing, negotiating with Japanese (and other Asian) businesses, “fansubs are free advertisements, not bootleg copies”, music rights, and much more.

I’m not going to claim to be pure as the driven snow on the download/bootleg issue. When I first got into anime, I ended up buying some bootlegs before I realized what they were and what they represented. I’ve dubbed a few VHS tapes. I’ve shown and watched movies at clubs and classes that we didn’t have written permission to screen. I’ve watched some titles on Youtube and other places. But, when I get a chance, I replace the bootlegs with legit releases, and buy hard copies of things I’ve watched streamed, I don’t make a habit of bootlegging or downloading, and I’m helping push the clubs I’m in to go legit. Those are my choices, yours may be different.

I started this post with the intention of bringing in a bit more of a legal perspective to the discussion, but it seems to have veered off in the direction of morality. I definitely don’t intend for this to be seen as being aimed at any of the posters personally, so please don’t take it as such. However, I was seeing some fairly tortured logic used to defend bootlegging, and some general lack of knowledge regarding copyrights and enforcement, and decided to step in. I don’t mind if you wish to consider bootlegging as the best available option for certain titles, just please don’t pretend that it is ever noble or right to bootleg when other options exist.

I’ve seen ‘trading’ mentioned a number of times in this thread – does this usually refer to exchanging original, legit DVDs, or exchanging DVD-R rips of originals?

Yi-Long

03-06-2009, 01:40 AM

For me, the 'moral dillema' is very simple.

If I can't BUY the version I want, and it's available online, I'll download it instead.
This means for movies that are severely CUT, has altered music, doesnt have the original voices, etc etc.
A good example of that would be Fist of Legend, or Drunken Master 2, or even Ong-Bak (although I have 2 legal versions of OB, and a legal uncut VHS of FOL)

For anime and some TV series I hold a slightly different moral standard: Anime I will always wanna check out through fansubs. Once I know I like it, I usually stop watching it and will buy it on DVD. Problem with that is that here in Europe, and especially here in Holland, anime is heavily overpriced, and usually also has it's quality problems.
For TV series like The Colbert Report, I just download those and watch them, cause they aren't aired here, but obviously they arent SOLD here. No dillema there.
Other series I will just buy on DVD when I like them.

Music I download. Multiple reasons, but the main part is that I hardly listen to music, and when I do it's always through my PC, and music has been heavily overpriced here in Holland anyway. 15-20 euro for a 40-50 minute CD, no thanks.

I believe piracy is GOOD for the industry, when it comes to Kung Fu movies.
A guy like Harvey Weinstein can buy up the rights to our favourite movies and cut them to shreds and ruin them... so we deserve an alternative cause we wanna be able to watch our beloved movies UNCUT, SUBBED, and NOT reward that greedy fat worthless bastard by paying money for his criminal behaviour.
And if Harvey does release these movies uncut, we will buy them. Simple as that.

Bravery

03-06-2009, 03:29 AM

I’ve seen ‘trading’ mentioned a number of times in this thread – does this usually refer to exchanging original, legit DVDs, or exchanging DVD-R rips of originals?

The trading is of it all, at least when I mention it. It is the hypocrisy of the issue that I have a problem with; members saying that trading a movie isn't doing the same thing to a company as buying a bootleg is, in my eyes, ridiculous. Especially in a genre that already doesn't get mainstream respect.

Most of the arguments against panmedia have nothing to do with bootlegging, just simply about panmedia making a profit. My stance is that it all takes from the company profit and are illegal as well, so people shouldn't draw a line through sand and say because they aren't doing the trading or downloading in a store it doesn't affect the companies, which is simply not true. They need to get off their high horses.

I buy bootlegs, so I will never tell someone they are wrong for trading. But, it is wrong to pass judgement against someone and say there actions are hurting the industry, when the finger pointer themselves are hurting the same industry with their actions. They talk about panmedia making money, but then in turn sell or trade DVDrs of movies that are readily available for purchase, and then when someone poses a question about bootlegging they get called a bunch of names.

Once again, my problem is not with trading, not with purchasing bootlegs, but with the treatment of those who pose a question and then are treated as if they single handidly destroyed a industry, that was almost doomed from the DVD start, because they purchased a panmedia dvd; not a bootleg, but a panmedia bootleg. They see nothing wrong with this hypocrisy. And, this is important, because when people on this forum start discussing bootlegs, the issue changes direction and becomes a don't support panmedia discussion.

And, once again I ask the question, that no one ever answers when I ask it, either here or elsewher, IF PANMEDIA WERE GIVING AWAY THESE MOVIES, WOULD IT, in their eyes, BE BETTER?

And for the record, no one here is defending bootlegging, just curious as to why people feel that it is okay to bootleg one one as oppose to another.

Bravery

03-06-2009, 03:51 AM

I believe piracy is GOOD for the industry, when it comes to Kung Fu movies.
A guy like Harvey Weinstein can buy up the rights to our favourite movies and cut them to shreds and ruin them... so we deserve an alternative cause we wanna be able to watch our beloved movies UNCUT, SUBBED, and NOT reward that greedy fat worthless bastard by paying money for his criminal behaviour.
And if Harvey does release these movies uncut, we will buy them. Simple as that.

And this is a bigger issue with the Dragon Dynasty releases, it is also where I become a hypocrite, which I often am;), lol. How can they expect to get the hardcore fans to look at their over-priced DVDs, when they don't put forth an effort to make them presentable. I've emailed them, and haven't gotten a response. I would, and most of us here would, volunteer personal time to help make these releases better. I would love to get a release of a classic movie, such as police story, with all the trimmings. They don't care. When it comes to newer releases, such as the recently released Protege, it's fine, they take less effort to release. I double dipped for Protege with no problem and am glad I did, but I am upset that I picked up an inferior copy of Supercop.

They repeatedly flub the classic movies, and can't give a reason why. Is there some legal reason why the original audio can't be used? or they can't include better translated subtitles? or fix/add dubs for the fans that want them? I want to know, because I don't understand how they consistantly mess them up. For me, a recently out of work student, purchasing a movie requires thought and consideration, and for this particular company, for the oldies but goodies, they show me that they don't mind being a last option.

Dragon Dynasty is the biggest current name in western kung fu releases, which isn't much, but they act like they are releasing movies that people just have to support. They fubar'd Hard Boiled with no reason. What is the point of a rerelease of Fist of Legend if it doesn't improve over its predecessor. Now, I will continue to support them with my decreasing value dollars, but if they continue to show they don't care, then i'll stop caring.

shaolin drunkard

03-06-2009, 12:03 PM

Pan Media bashing is too much..I do not like/buy bootlegs either but let´s face it,they are not only to blame poor sales of Kung-Fu movies.Many people including some in this forum I bet go for dvd-r or download instead of buying genuine release.Many think if can survive without paying then why do it?Numerous lecture about support but few actually do it...

If you trade/d-l ivl/dd/bci to another then you almost likely destroy possible customer..At least Mr.Pan Media is not making silly excuses around

Atherton

03-06-2009, 03:57 PM

I guess I feel lucky and fortunate I've never really had to trade or download. While still being able to adequately fulfill my kung fu fixes.

HyperDrive

03-07-2009, 02:25 AM

Trading is ok if there is not a legitimate release or the disc is not available due to the company going under or whatever. There is no way that FYE or whatever does not know that they carry bootlegs. Whoever in charge of purchasing for the retailers simply ignores procedure.

http://www.tohogate.proboards49.com/index.cgi?board=myst&action=display&thread=1146

Wow, interesting thread. Can anyone here back up the claims made there? If so, it is a legitimate reason not to buy Panmedia.

shaolin drunkard

03-07-2009, 03:03 AM

Another problem why people buy bootlegs is because they don't want to spend lots of money on a all regions dvd players, which are not very cheap when you live in hard time like now.
ALternative is to buy cheap(in case something f*cks up u dun lose a lot ca$h) player and find dvd-hack from internet like I did.Plays all perfectly.

Koyuki

03-07-2009, 04:10 AM

Another problem why people buy bootlegs is because they don't want to spend lots of money on a all regions dvd players, which are not very cheap when you live in hard time like now.

Pretty much any dvd player can be hacked and reset to all-region, especially the cheap ones. If the box mentions PAL/NTSC conversion, you're good, all you have to do is find the right code to enter.