Venom's fims have lost their luster

[GwaiLoMoFo]

It seems the more Venom's films I go back and revisit the more disappointed I become. After a while they all kinda blend in to the same film. Initial viewings of most of the films were really enjoyable. I started to really notice this after I picked up the IVL "5 Element Ninja" dvd. I dont know why a film that I thought I loved so much bored the hell outta me. Its not so much the story/plot lines, but the action choreography. Why they are all great athletes/acrobats, their stiff punch and block style of fighting is just boring. The weapons choreography is better, but even those scenes can look too staged. Sometimes you can almost see them counting during the "routines". During weapons combat they seem to be swinging at each others ankles or a foot above their heads. I have always been a much bigger fan of shapes style choreography like LKL's. Repeat viewings of his films have always held up for me. It might seem like Im baggin on the Venoms, Im more disappointed than anything. To the point Im gettin rid of most of them.

[falkor]

5 Element Ninjas choreography is about as good it gets in terms of shapes, patterns, arrays and formations. Its like admiring perfectly symmetrical building architecture or something--its just too beautiful! Perhaps you have some of the Japanese "Wabi Sabi" mentality inside of you that appreciates imperfection?
"stiff punch and block style of fighting is just boring"
I am baffled how you are getting this impression. The only thing I can think of: it might be the fact that Shaw Brothers always use the same type of sound effects unlike independent classics, or, your frontal lobes are overpowered. Mate, when watching a Venoms film you need to be chilled out and relaxed. If something is on your mind then I say don't bother. The films are there for escapism, but maybe you need something more realistic, hence your appreciation of LKL. I don't know... could speculate all day... been analysing kung fandom for years... Markgway is the ultimate case study.

[shaolin drunkard]

5 element ninja is not venomS film..I got a hell lot more out of "flag of iron" when saw full IVL release instead of bastard english dub...Masked Avengers is maybe ultimate cc or kf flick,kid with the golden arm is not that great but it has some cool one-liners in english dub...

[Tosh]

I've always seen the Venom fight choreo more theatrical, I mean all the flips aren't very practical when it comes to a fight, but man does it ever look cool . I'm a big fan of variety, if all the fight scenes looked like they came from one person then it would be boring. The thing I like about the Venom acrobatics is it's them, no doubling, very minimal use of wires, I think they held back on what they could of really done as seen in The Daredevils.
They also had the misfortune of coming in at the end of Chang Cheh's career, I think a lot of the close up zooms actually took away from what they were doing, I think they did the best with what they had to work with at the time. All in all imo, whenever in doubt, throw in a Venoms movie.

[shaolin drunkard]

well,if it makes you feel any happier it`s almost certain in our lifetime we never see again such a "just boring choreography...."

[GwaiLoMoFo]

well,if it makes you feel any happier it`s almost certain in our lifetime we never see again such a "just boring choreography...."
Doesnt make me happy at all, thats the whole point of my post. Going back and revisiting these films I once thought I loved and coming away disappointed. I took a break from them for a while and thought that would help, but it didnt.
5 Element Ninjas choreography is about as good it gets in terms of shapes, patterns, arrays and formations. Its like admiring perfectly symmetrical building architecture or something--its just too beautiful! Perhaps you have some of the Japanese "Wabi Sabi" mentality inside of you that appreciates imperfection? The films are there for escapism, but maybe you need something more realistic, hence your appreciation of LKL.
You know, I actually think you might be onto something there. Maybe their performances are too perfect (perfectly timed & executed), hence why they seem too "staged" to me. I totally gree with your post falkor.
Im not questioning their greatness or ability. I just think over the years my tastes have changed/evolved.

[teako170]

I just think over the years my tastes have changed/evolved.

Nothing wrong with that. I've only watched my IVLs once (except for 5V). I wouldn't get rid of them though. Unless you need the extra cash or space (which really doesn't amount to much either way), I suggest you just put them away and in a year (or five), give them another go. You just might enjoy them again; if only for the nostalgia.

[Markgway]

Actually I rather liked FIVE ELEMENT NINJAS. :D

Had a decent story to match its balletic bloodletting and was Chang Cheh's last hurrah to martial arts cinema (nothing he did subsequently came close, though I admit I've not seen a couple of his latter "Baby Venom" films).

Shapes and arrangements are all very well but I need to care about who's fighting and why? That's perhaps what seperates me from some fans? To me the fighting arts are the icing on the cake not the raison d'etre. That's where Falkor and I part company. But that's fine because we all get somethng different out of these (or any) films.

The choreography of The Venoms (even into the early 80s) was traditional in style compared to what Sammo Hung was doing elsewhere... It's probable that Gwailomofo prefers the high impact action in Sammo's films to the more flowery, acrobatic style employed by The Venoms. But that's just a guess...

[Chinatown Kid]

Fights have become a little to stagey for you in the traditional style choreography ala the Venoms films huh, sounds like you need a shot of Bruce Lee or Sonny Chiba in the Mas Oyama films. In those films the fights don't look like dancing like alot of the peking opera style choreography does. :)

[shaolin drunkard]

Fights have become a little to stagey for you in the traditional style choreography ala the Venoms films huh, sounds like you need a shot of Bruce Lee or Sonny Chiba in the Mas Oyama films. In those films the fights don't look like dancing like alot of the peking opera style choreography does. :)
yes,ballet is far from those..Instead you see wooden dummy punched or kicked:kiss:

[Monk Sante]

They say variety is the spice of life.........:angel:

[Killer Meteor]

I think the Venoms work better with the campy English dubs. The phoney Chinese dubbing just makes them feel artifical and lifeless. A bit of open air or modern day setting might have helped too

[Chinatown Kid]

yes,ballet is far from those..Instead you see wooden dummy punched or kicked:kiss:

Ha ha well maybe so but they look more like a real fight than when you have two people fighting with move after move of strikes and blocks without anyone landing a blow, but to tell you the truth I appreciate both styles of choreography. :)

[Li Ho]

Chiang Sheng is rolling over in his grave as we speak.

[GwaiLoMoFo]

It's probable that Gwailomofo prefers the high impact action in Sammo's films to the more flowery, acrobatic style employed by The Venoms. But that's just a guess...
Yes, very much so. Give me the brief (but beautiful) alley fight from "Martial Club" (Gordon V WLW) over anything the venoms ever put together.
Fights have become a little to stagey for you in the traditional style choreography ala the Venoms films huh, sounds like you need a shot of Bruce Lee or Sonny Chiba in the Mas Oyama films. In those films the fights don't look like dancing like alot of the peking opera style choreography does.
Chiba is probably my favorite all around genre actor. From karate, samurai, and even his exploitation work.

[Iron Boat]

I just prefer to say the venoms films became a bit cheesy over time. A lot of people seem to like Masked Avengers, Flag of Iron, and Golden Arm, but those are very cheesy to me.

[lillippa328]

Venom films are somthing u just sit back and enjoy....open your mind, and just enjoy....


i love the venom films

[teako170]

I think the Venoms work better with the campy English dubs. The phoney Chinese dubbing just makes them feel artifical and lifeless.

I prefer the subs (overall) but I have to agree that the V flix work better w/ dubs (IMO).

A bit of open air or modern day setting might have helped too

That's why I enjoy Life Gamble. It gives us the chance to see what the V-boys looked like in a real environment and what their flix might have been like if CC didn't use the sound stage. Then again, many feel the artificial sets added to the overall campiness of their films and to take that away would have ruined it.

[shaolin drunkard]

Yes, very much so. Give me the brief (but beautiful) alley fight from "Martial Club" (Gordon V WLW) over anything the venoms ever put together.

I did not like that very much..it has it`s moments but it became silly when Northern Master did those agility scenes(I am 99% sure someone doubled Wang Lung Wei in that).Scenes orchestrated by Lu Feng,Kuo Chui and Chiang Sheng are top notch always.Have to say there has been moment or two when I thought they take acrobatism too far in cost of realism though.

[shaolin drunkard]

Ha ha well maybe so but they look more like a real fight than when you have two people fighting with move after move of strikes and blocks without anyone landing a blow, but to tell you the truth I appreciate both styles of choreography. :)
Not much disagreemet there.it seems most people in Bruces movies are waiting to be hit by Little Dragon but I guess if pick random thugs from street and put them against someone who has speed of Lee Jun Fan hardly they would do any better than those wooden dummies in movies:S

[vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

"Scenes orchestrated by Lu Feng,Kuo Chui and Chiang Sheng are top notch always.Have to say there has been moment or two when I thought they take acrobatism too far in cost of realism though.

Well said SD and spot on. The vemons busted there ass' to bring you what you see in their films. They obviously loved the acrobat element and were having a great deal of fun applying it to there choreographs. Not to mention the individual charisma each venom had working off one another. Magnificent Ruffians aka The Destroyers, I feel would be a great start for anyone looking to check out a venom's film. It really captures each actors real life character IMO. They look like they're just being themselves with their roles in MR.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

It may sound obvious, but to me it's only a matter of taste and what you are in the mood for.

The fact that the Venoms choreo. is very Peking opera like and may sometime look too stage does not bother me at all. The end fight in Crippled Avengers were Chiang Sing and Kuo Chui fights Lu Feng with the metal rings might be the best exemple of the action looking too stage. Still, it's acrobatic and spectacular and that's what I like about it. I might tend to agree about the weakness of their hand to hand choreography though, to me the Venoms were at their best with the weapon work.

But basically, like I said, it all comes down to what type of action you're in the mood too watch. Sometimes you just get bored with a specific type of choreo. Not so long ago, I couldn't watch any of the early 90's wired kung fu extravaganza anymore. Anytime I tried watching one I was bored out of my mind... And yet now I'm rediscovering it all over again. There was also a phase were all I wanted to see was 80's modern kickboxing type of action. If you are in the mood for a specific type, or not in the mood for a specific other, there's no point in forcing yourself as you are sure not to enjoy it.

See, now I'm in my 90's wired kung fu again and I couldn't be bothered watching any old school flick for now... But it'll be back. Only a matter of rediscovering why a particular genre of choreo. is so great, and being able to see it with fresh eyes. They're all great.

[Stuntman Jules]

I've always had issues with Chang Cheh in general.

The fighting in his films is always great, there's always an ample amount of gore on hand but his style is sloppy as all get out. Most of Shaw's directors were like this but Chang was the worst: zooms every 30 seconds, dirty lenses, some shots not even focused properly, etc. He's like Lucio Fulci in that regard: great fun violence and eye candy but poor production values. Whenever people aren't going on kung fu killing sprees in his films it gets boring as all hell, also.

His David Chiang/Ti Lung period stuff is the most tolerable and his best work. The One Armed Swordsman has some great moments but is very uneven, but I do love Vengeance, Boxer From Shantung and The Blood Brothers. Easily his three best films with good characterization and balls-to-wall finales.

His Venoms stuff is his worst. The Venoms lack all the charisma, to me, of people like Wang Yu, Chiang, Ti Lung, Chen Kuan Tai, etc. His movies really started to suffer once he parted ways with Lau Kar Leung.

[KyFi]

I've always had issues with Chang Cheh in general.

The fighting in his films is always great, there's always an ample amount of gore on hand but his style is sloppy as all get out. Most of Shaw's directors were like this but Chang was the worst: zooms every 30 seconds, dirty lenses, some shots not even focused properly, etc. He's like Lucio Fulci in that regard: great fun violence and eye candy but poor production values. Whenever people aren't going on kung fu killing sprees in his films it gets boring as all hell, also.

His David Chiang/Ti Lung period stuff is the most tolerable and his best work. The One Armed Swordsman has some great moments but is very uneven, but I do love Vengeance, Boxer From Shantung and The Blood Brothers. Easily his three best films with good characterization and balls-to-wall finales.

His Venoms stuff is his worst. The Venoms lack all the charisma, to me, of people like Wang Yu, Chiang, Ti Lung, Chen Kuan Tai, etc. His movies really started to suffer once he parted ways with Lau Kar Leung.

While I don't feel quite as strongly, I think Stuntman Jules' points are valid. I appreciate CC's artistic vision, but I think he was more of a "vibe" director rather than a "details" director, and I agree that his earlier works were stronger.

While I still enjoy the Venoms movies, I do have to say I wasn't hit with the "wow" factor as much compared to when I first saw the widescreen Celestial versions of a bunch of other 60's-mid 70's Shaw films. Maybe it had to do with the more artificial sets and lack of outdoor shots, but the venoms movies didn't seem to benefit as much as others from the widescreen restoration, to me at least. That being said though, I do enjoy their films, and as mentioned earlier sometimes I'm just really in the mood for that style of choreography.

[teako170]

While I still enjoy the Venoms movies, I do have to say I wasn't hit with the "wow" factor as much compared to when I first saw the widescreen Celestial versions of a bunch of other 60's-mid 70's Shaw films. Maybe it had to do with the more artificial sets and lack of outdoor shots, but the venoms movies didn't seem to benefit as much as others from the widescreen restoration, to me at least.

Similar feelings. Earlier CC work (and films by others during that period) really stood up when seeing them remastered. It was like watching these films for the first time.

Venoms... I tend to like better when they're in their muddy BootlegScope with awkward dubs. The Venom flix always had a mythical feel about them and seemed to be work well in that fog or haze. Think of that "Claritin" commercial when they pop their little pill and the world goes from hazy to clear. The Celestial discs were like taking that pill which then stripped the Venoms of their surreal world as we clearly saw the make-believe reality of a Shaw set.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

personally, I think that the interior for exterior sets, were part of the Shaw experience, venoms flicks or not! Granted, they did get more and more hoaky looking as the years went on. But to me, it is part of the package.

I shift between all manner of movies, from various genres, decades, countries etc. So I rarely get tired of any one style! And even if I do, I would never get rid of any films in my collection. I've done that before, and it was a HUGE mistake. My interest for said movies were reignited, and am now in the process of having to buy them all again.... bad move, and expensive!

[BaronK]

5EN is not a Venoms movie. It is the first of CC movies with his last team(Cheng Tien Chi, Chao Kuo, Chu Ko) while at Shaw. CC did 5EN while LF, KC and CS did Ninja in the Deadly Trap in Taiwan.

"The only thing I can think of: it might be the fact that Shaw Brothers always use the same type of sound effects unlike independent classics"

Not true. If you pay attention, Shaw changed soundfx about every 2-3 years. Hand to hand, metal to wood, etc. They changed their foley, while everyone outside of them used the exact same sounds. That paper slapping sound for hand to hand and such. Listen to hand to hand sounds from Shaw from 75-77, then 78-80, then 81-82, then 83 on.

[odioustrident]

I really think the extended Venoms crew (Chen Tien Chi, Chiu Gwok ,Chu Ko etc...) had almost as much to do with the "Venoms" style weaponwork as Lu Feng, Chiang Sheng, and Kwok Chun Fung. I don't think any of the early handwork left a mark on MA film history, as people have pointed out here (sorry Lo Mang fans I still love it all).

The extended Venoms crew was doing classic Venoms weaponwork in Weird Man and 5 Element Ninjas, so I don't mind when people call those Venoms films (even if they are not). I would not consider myself mislead if either of those titles had "Venoms film" on the jacket; a lot of fans are still getting what they want.

[Markgway]

His Venoms stuff is his worst.

You haven't seen the films he made after he left Shaws then... lol

The Venoms films were usually entertaining but less well made than Chang's earlier films. I don't think his heart was in it. The first - The Five Venoms - is still the best and arguably Chang's last great film. The likes of Crippled Avengers and Five Element Ninjas are good but maybe not great?

It's all subjective really...

[shaolin drunkard]

The first - The Five Venoms - is still the best and arguably Chang's last great film.lol,hell no!CC made his best film whole career considered,not just Venoms era few years later....that movie is of course incredible Masked Avengers:D

[Markgway]

lol,hell no!CC made his best film whole career considered,not just Venoms era few years later....that movie is of course incredible Masked Avengers:D

You're not serious are you? :S

[shaolin drunkard]

You're not serious are you? :S
I am:angel:

[Bravery]

Most kung fu films offered nothing new in terms of plot, most are similar, venoms films are no exeption. I remember the first time I watched 5 Deadly Venoms, I was blown away and I found out they had done more movies together. I had to have them. By the time I had gotten to Ode to Gallantry, which was about the 10th movie of their's i'd seen, I was ready to movie on. Over the years, I have come to feel the same way about most fu flicks, they reuse plots. There is the occasional great film, but mostly mediocre. I still enjoy those mediocre films, but not like I did when I first came into the genre.

But, anytime you watch the same kind of movie, just with switched around characters, you'll become bored easily. I use to collect these movies, but now, I just keep what I want and give the rest to my uncle or cousin.

The same plot, the same story, the same characters, I mean, part of the reason I love Sword stained with Royal Blood is because of Chiang Sheng playing a villian.

They should of made Chiang Sheng a leading man, and used him outside of the venoms. AHHHHHH a man can dream can't he.

[daisho2004]

I don't think venom movies are boring.Their fight scenes are much better than any David Chiang or Ti Lung film.And considering Chang Che's older stars were doubled too much i prefer venoms and venoms.
2009.03.22 10:57 PM

ekisha: Now I'm a big fan of David Chiang & Ti Lung I thought they were great together and to me they made some of the best SB movies hands down. The Venoms were good but, there were a few movies that to me were just OK.

[thekfc]

I am:angel:

Pass me some of that fine rice wine that you been drinking, drunkard. :D

[Iron Boat]

I think David Chaing and Ti Lung were great with their action scenes, their moves were not as dynamic as the venoms, but I find their fight scenes to be more interesting and relevant to the plot.

[Killer Meteor]

I thought Five Venoms itself was dull. Crippled Avengers was Chang Cheh's last great film and Masked Avengers makes a fine change from the norm with its very Grand Guignol feel

I think the Venoms would have benefitted from better scripts and direction. Perhaps more one Venom films would have worked, because some are absurdly padded in the heroes's department!

[Iron Boat]

Venoms are better acrobats, Chen Kuan Tai is a better fighter, I'd say Gordon Liu is a better skilled fighter as well.

[lillippa328]

i lovethe venom films...i love all the SB films...

[MrSuzuki]

Venom films haven't lost their luster, it's your appreciation of them that has lost its luster. You just finally reached that spot where you're tired of the same thing again and again. That's why it's healthy to have multiple interests in life and not just one.

[Markgway]

i lovethe venom films...i love all the SB films...

Even the shit ones?

[lillippa328]

well of corse not the shit ones lol....but the great and the classics...i think the choreography was for its time...


plus why is there complaining 25 years later? lol

[GwaiLoMoFo]

Venom films haven't lost their luster, it's your appreciation of them that has lost its luster. You just finally reached that spot where you're tired of the same thing again and again. That's why it's healthy to have multiple interests in life and not just one.
Yes my appreciation for Venoms films has lost its luster, no the rest of the genre. I honestly didnt start re-watching these films until the Celestials were released. Which means for many of these films it had been @ 5-10 years since I watched them. And there are some that I saw for the first time via Celestial. So I know that its not that I am "burned out" on them. I always mix up my viewing to avoid getting tired of a particualr style or genre of films. I have a very extensive collection of foreign & domestic films from ALL genres. I think that over the years the more films I saw from directors like Sammo, LKL & YWP, the more I appreciated their style of choreography over the circus ole style of the vernoms. The more realistic, harder hitting, traditional shapes choreography is what I like in my classic kf. To each his own

[Tosh]

XDLuster has been thrown around in this thread so much I can't help but quote King Osric (changed to fit the times)-

There comes a time, when the jewels cease to sparkle, when the Venom movies loses their luster, when the living room becomes a prison, and all that is left is a father's love for his Shaw Brother films.

[kungfusamurai]

What? I didn't know that Cynthia Luster was part of the Venoms flicks!

Actually, I agree to a certain extent that many of the Venoms films don't hold up well on repeated viewing. For me, I don't like watching Crippled Avengers. The first time I saw it I was so excited because it was like the Five Deadly Venoms Pt 2. But after watching it a couple more times, I got kind of sick of it. The biggest turn-off is the finale. Too much horsing around, especially with all those damn peking opera tumbles that Chiang Sheng and Lu Feng do. I understand they were probably paying an homage to their Opera roots, but it just went on for too long. Since when to adversaries tumble around together?!! It's almost as bad as those parts in fight scenes in some KF flicks when one guy loses his weapon to the other guy, but then the other guy gives it back! :)

Too much of a good thing will definitely make you sick of it after a while. Wanting to sell of the films is going overboard. Put them away for a while, then revisit them in a few years time. You'll fall in love with the sweaty, bare-chested venoms clan all over again!! :D

KFS

[vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

Nice Tosh. King Osric, great actor right there, Max Von Sydow (spelling). There's extra footage on youtube where he is attackee by his sentries. I'm not sure how it fits into the story. They were enamoured by Thulsa Doom? Anyway, pretty cool to check out.

Venom's lose their luster? Not to anyone who truly appreciates them for what they are. You figure it out.

[gorhama]

Best post of the month TOSH!!!

As for the Venoms films....I've recently gotten on a SHAW Brothers kick and the Venoms films are at the top of my list. THAT being wrote....I can understand how one can get burnt out or how films could loose their luster!!!

[inframan]

I recently saw Shaolin Rescuers, and at the beggining of the final fight Kuo Choi is moving so slow I couldn't believe it. All I could think was that Jackie or Sammo would have reshot that a dozen more times or maybe undercranked it, I don't know I was just stunned by how slow it was. Everyone was fairly slow at the beggining of that fight, but I noticed that they were picking up the pace little by little. By the end I couldn't believe how fast and tightly coreographed it was.

This got me thinking, most of the venoms and Jackie and Sammo come from the Chinese Opera background. I think the Venoms have a more traditional approach to their films. Their movies have a lot longer shots with more moves between the camera cuts. The shaw studio kind of gives it a theatrical feel as well. Its just a different style.

[Tosh]

Nice Tosh. King Osric, great actor right there, Max Von Sydow (spelling). There's extra footage on youtube where he is attackee by his sentries. I'm not sure how it fits into the story. They were enamoured by Thulsa Doom? Anyway, pretty cool to check out.



Yeah I have that disk, I'm glad they cut that part out, it was strange seeing the alternative ending were the princess goes with him at the end, and you see them walk off to what I'm sure would be a bone-ing by the big guy, though she should of gave it up to Subotai as he saved her from the snake arrow and took a spear in the leg for herXD

Max Von Sydow has had some awesome roles from Excorist to his crazt part as the brewmaster in Strange Brew.

[Tosh]

I recently saw Shaolin Rescuers, and at the beggining of the final fight Kuo Choi is moving so slow I couldn't believe it. All I could think was that Jackie or Sammo would have reshot that a dozen more times or maybe undercranked it, I don't know I was just stunned by how slow it was. Everyone was fairly slow at the beggining of that fight, but I noticed that they were picking up the pace little by little. By the end I couldn't believe how fast and tightly coreographed it was.

This got me thinking, most of the venoms and Jackie and Sammo come from the Chinese Opera background. I think the Venoms have a more traditional approach to their films. Their movies have a lot longer shots with more moves between the camera cuts. The shaw studio kind of gives it a theatrical feel as well. Its just a different style.

I think Sammo and Jackie had more expirence with Sammos mother being who she was and their ties to the HK film industry, and had more time to develop their choreo, Venoms movies are a little more loose, probably a little more freestyle where they may have improvised at times.

[2tintoe]

I have to say, The Venom films are always "hit or miss" with me. Crippled Avengers is the one title that I've been able to watch again and again (since I was about ten... in 1985), always with delight... but other than CA, I find my tolerance for the Venoms to be entirely based on my mood.

I feel, as a whole, that by the time Cheng Cheh got to the (for lack of a better term) The Venoms Team, Cheh had exhausted himself; the tension and high drama, so prevalent in the Wang Yu and Chaing/Lung films seemed to have taken a back seat to the action. And hey, these are Kung Fu flicks, the action is part and parcel to the enjoyment of the films. But without the strong story or character development to balance the action, it's harder to become emotionally invested, at least for me.

Having said that, I do enjoy the "martial world"/"superhero" feel to the films, and at various points (again, depending on my mood) there is nothing more fun than a Venom movie.

On that note, I recently watched the trailers on DragonDynasty's One Armed Swordsman disc. What I found fascinating is it seemed like the Shaw Brothers valued Chang Cheh's ability to find "new faces" more than his ability to tell a story. Perhaps this influenced the aforementioned ennui in Chang's directing, as if he was thinking "Eh, If I show 'em a bunch a kids doing kung fu, Run Me will be happy and I can pay my mortgage." Or, as I implied earlier, maybe after doing a billion films about the martial code of brotherhood, he ran out of creative steam. I actually have a bunch of theories about Chang Cheh's creative process, but this post is fairly long as it is, I'm sure nobody wants to hear me blather.

[inframan]

I think Sammo and Jackie had more expirence with Sammos mother being who she was and their ties to the HK film industry, and had more time to develop their choreo, Venoms movies are a little more loose, probably a little more freestyle where they may have improvised at times.

I think you're right, the venoms were really "in the moment" where as Sammo/Jackie were looking more at the finished product.

[vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

I'd take the venoms over sammo and jackie anyday. I know how unpopular this opinion may be, but I think sammo and jackie are over-rated. I do not think that way of the Venoms, contrary to popular opinion.

[Iron Boat]

I find Sammo's films to be smitten with too much cheesy "hey fatty" humor. The only Sammo film I consider classic is the Prodigal Son, I couldn't make it through Odd Couple or Knockabout, too silly. Oh wait, Warriors Two was alright, but I haven't gotten around to watching many of his films as of yet.

[shaolin drunkard]

Venoms got also very good support from "extras" Yu Tai Ping,Chu Ker and particularly one of best weapon man Wang Li.Sword Stained With Royal Blood is likely Venom movie I enjoy least.But problem there is not fights or cast but it suffers from same thing as many Chu Yuan flicks based on novels 90 mins is not enough for novel turned into movie.OK,one thing in it bugs me a bit Kuo Chuis character for a while thinks she is he.It might be very innocent for chinese audience but scene where they meet a moonlight in garden is bit gay:nerd:

[shaolin drunkard]

jackie over-rated.
Jackie IMO made a lot better movies before Police Story than after it.

[Killer Meteor]

Jackie IMO made a lot better movies before Police Story than after it.

I think Miracles was the turning point.