Discovering samurai films

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Ok, like I said in another post, for now, although i'd like it too, Samurai flicks are not my cup of tea.

So I need you're help to discover the genre based on my likes and don't likes.

Movies I liked so far:

Lone wolf and cub 1 and 2
Seven Samurai
Harakiri
Sword of Doom

Movies I didn't care too much for:

Tenchu
Goyukin
Lone wolf and cub 3,4,5,6
or many of the Chiba/Sanada stuff (8 samurai, Samurai Reincarnation, etc...)
I tried to watch the Samurai trilogy but didn't care too much for it, maybe I should revisit it, but that's another exemple of bad swordplay.

So basically I'm looking for good cinematography, good intricate swordplay (like Sword of Doom) and good story. Seven samurai and Harakiri had pretty weak swordplay but they are such awesome movies that I could overlook that fact. I'm not looking for Hong Kong type choreo. just solid sword skill and no people swinging swords like idiots. For exemple, I didn't think Tenchu or Goyukin had good choreo.

I'd also love to visit the Zatoichi series but with so many movies, maybe someone can give me some hints to wich one are great and wich one may be skipped.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Stuntman Jules]

There seem to be few samurai films that give the best of both words.

The ones with awesome choreography, action and lots of gore and blood and guts like some of Kinji Fukasaku and Sonny Chiba's jidai-geki films (Legend of the Eight Samurai) or the Lone Wolf and Cub films and other Kazuo Koike-based works are always cheaper, more exploitative and trashier.

However, the artsier and aesthetically far superior ones by people like Masaki Kobayashi, Akira Kurosawa and Kihachi Okamoto are lower on the artsy swordplay and arterial spray and high on the intricate camera work and impressive use of framing and B&W/color.

So it all comes down to taste really. From what you like vs. what you disliked, you seem like you go for the latter category far more often.

[Yakuza954]

Do you really think the swordplay in Seven Samurai is weak? It may not be flashy, but it is very realistic, and matches the tone of the story perfectly. I actually think the overall choreography of that movie (the swordplay and especially the group fight scenes) were decades ahead of their time. With Harakiri, I can kinda see where you're coming from, because the action sequences are a bit slow and sloppy, but again, much of that can be attributed to the creators aiming for realism in those scenes. Take for example when Nakadai becomes completely exhausted in the final fight, or when the wind plays a key part in the duel with Tetsuro Tamba. Again, not intricately choreographed scenes, but getting a high degree of real-life plausibility in action sequences can be just as impressive and difficult as filming a 1 minute continuous take where one guy decapitates a whole army.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Yeah ok, "weak" is maybe to strong a word here. It may be not just very "flashy" like you said. But don't get me wrong, I truly love Seven Samurai. Same with Harakiri, the quality of the direction, cinematography and performances far outshadow the lack of intricate swordplay. As for aiming for realism, I understand that's what they wanted to achieve, I just don't think they did it too well. I don't necessarly want to see someone take over an army, just not see a samurai swing his sword aimlessly. I'm all for the quality of the build up to a fight scenes with the atmosphere, the choice of how to cut the scene, the camera angles, etc... An exemple of a well staged fight in Seven Samurai is the duel that occurs in the village when they are recruiting the samurais. It's quick, effecient and achieves the goal of looking realistic, without comprimising the quality of the fight.

Will be watching the first Zatoichi movie tonight, hope it delivers.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Amazing Psycho Per, the film SAMURAI REBELLION is a perfect chanbara film IMO. It has the highest level of artistic expression you could ever hope for in a film, and totally delivers in the swordplay department. The film is light on action for most of the film, but once it comes, it's quite the spectacle!.

I'm a big fan of the Zatoichi films, but personally, I found the first film to be one of my least favorites. A few that I really like are ZATOICHI AND THE CHEST OF GOLD, ZATOICHI'S CANE SWORD, and FIGHT, ZATOICHI, FIGHT.

I'll bet you would also enjoy TANGE SAZEN: SECRET OF THE URN (1966). This is part of a series about a one-eyed, one-armed samurai with a devilish wit, and a deadly katana. The particular title I mentioned has been remade several times, but the "66 version is the one I'd recommend.

[Yakuza954]

I was so busy arguing about the merits of the choreography in Seven Samurai and Harakiri that I forgot what this thread was really about. Judging by your interests, I have two recommendations for you. I may be treading on a slippery slope, because I really like the action in all the Lone Wolf and Cub movies, and in Goyokin, but ah, what the heck, here goes:

For older suff, I think you may like Samurai Wolf. The main character in this one has a really unique "quick-draw" style where he takes his sword out and quickly does an attack on opponent, akin to the quick-draw style used by cowboys with their revolvers in westerns. It creates for some interesting scenarios in fights and is worth watching just to see a different kind of sword style in a samurai movie.

The second recommendation is a more recent film, and that's The Twilight Samurai. All the choreography in this movie is solid and Hiroyuki Sanada is in top form but this is a drama first and foremost, so don't go in expecting a lot of action. Still, its probably the best samurai movie of the past decade and should be seen at least once. Sanada has always been one of the best physical performers too, so he's able to pull off some quick moves that most of his peers wouldn't be able to.

[jiujitsu77]

try shogun's shadow....that might be your cup of tea
one of chiba's best IMO

and for a little older school...try red lion...awesome story. mifune's presence is always great

[jiujitsu77]

and let me comment again on shogun's shadow

the reason i recommended it is not so much historical accuracy but for the amount of action that will keep your attention..great stuff

im going to finish karate priest tomorrow with katsu and nakadai. good so far

[venom10463]

Like Yakuza said, Samurai Wolf is also a great film to check out. You should also seek out part 2 as well. It's not as great as the 1st film, but it doesn't fall flat on the ground.

Another great titles that uses the quick draw style is Sword Devil.

Here's the synopsis:
From the pen of novelist SHIBATA Renzaburo, creator of the Nemuri Kyoshiro series, comes the story of a superior swordsman with special talents. His father is unknown, but he is the son of a lady in waiting to the Daimyo's late wife. This is the tale of 'Killer' Hanpei, an expert in the art of Iaido. Hanpei's lightning fast draw is put to use by his clan's Chamberlain to keep Shogunate spies from reporting that the clan lord has gone insane. Not having an heir, the clan would be abolished were to truth to get out. A brilliant film from master director MISUMI Kenji, as he utilizes the talents of Japan's most popular samurai actor, ICHIKAWA Raizo.

[kaleyboy]

Ono of my favourite samurai movies is Kill (Kiru). By turns both funny and tragic, after watching I felt I understood a little bit more about the human condition.

[KyFi]

The Zatoichis just get better and better as they go along, IMO. I would highly recommend #5, On the Road, as my favorite, although Chest of Gold, Fight, Zatoichi, Fight, are strong---heck, they're all great. They really maintained an amazingly consistent level of quality throughout that series.

[HAZ]

I recently re-watched the first few Zatoichi films & really enjoyed them. I found a remastered version which is MUCH better than the R1 releases. Actually being able to see what's happening made the movies seem way better :P lol. I am a fan of Three Outlaw Samurai, the Samurai Wolf series, any samurai films by Kenji Misumi, like Sword Devil. Lone Wolf & Cub was great, but I haven't re-watched those in a while.

[daisho2004]

If you want to see a very good Samurai/Ninja flick check out "Ninja Hunt" excellent movie the Original and the remake. I loved the "Lone Wolf & Cub" series although the last one was a bit disappointing but overall a great series. Next would be "The Sleepy Eyes of Death" series I have the entire collection and it is one of my favorite Samurai series. Zatoichi great series enough said. But if you really want to get an idea check out the sticky thread at the top of the page there are a lot of good reviews there to help you out.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Ok, unless I'm more blind then Zatoichi, there is no sticky thread reviewing Samurai movies...

That being said, thanks for the suggestions guys, that should get me going. For the record I enjoyed Zatoichi. Although there is not much action, I loved the build up and how you heard of Zatoichi's legendary skills, but could hardly grasp it until the end. Will definately keep looking for this series.

I think I might also revisit some flicks I didn't like a first time, now that I will be watching them with a new approach, knowing that the fighting choreo. is not what I'm looking for.

You can keep the suggestions coming, I'm all ears and eyes.

[KUNG FU BOB]

I must second the praise for TWILIGHT SAMURAI- an excellent film! My wife and I watched it the day before the academy awards, and were both quite disappointed when it lost for "Best Foreign Film".

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Yeah, I have seen Twilight Samurai. Good movie, interesting parallells to be made with modern day Japan. The final fight was a bit of a let down though... You have to assume you are making a movie with sword fighting people and in 2002 there were no reason why a fight should look so blend and approximative, especially with Sanada on board. That did not look realistic, just unchoregraphed. But hey, the point of the movie wasn't to show people fighting with swords...

[GwaiLoMoFo]

I must second the praise for TWILIGHT SAMURAI- an excellent film! My wife and I watched it the day before the academy awards, and were both quite disappointed when it lost for "Best Foreign Film".
All the films in that triolgy were fine films (Twilight Samurai, Hidden Blade & Love & Honor). But am I the only one who thought that "The Hidden Blade" was the best of the three? Ive heard alot of praise for "Twilight" and "Love & Honor", but "Hidden Blade" seems to have gotten the least praise. But I enjoyed that one the most.

[GwaiLoMoFo]

I cant believe you didnt enjoy "Goyokin" or "Tenchu"!! Those are two of my all time favorites. So your taste may be a bit suspect.....(jk)
Check out:
"Hidden Blade" & "Love & Honor" (to complete Twilight Samurai trilogy)
"Satans Sword" (Trilogy) *A must if you liked "Sword Of Doom"*
"Kill!!" (aka Kiru!!)
"When The Last Sword Is Drawn"
"Whirlwind"
"Shogun's Samurai" (aka Yagyu Clan Conspiracy)
"Zatoichi And The Chess Expert"
"Zatoichi And The Festival Of Fire"
"The Betrayal"
"Kiru"
"Sword Devil"
"Three Outlaw Samurai"

[Tosh]

Well I never heard of someone liking the first two Lone Wolf and Cubs but not the rest:o It's kind of hard to gauge what your looking for.

I think you'll like the Zatoichi movies, if your looking for swordmanship you picked the right movie.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Ok, for the record I did not genuinely dislike the rest of the Lone Wolf and Cub series. I just thought that as the series move along, things I don't know how to say it but, it fades away... It's not that they are that bad. Maybe it's because the novelty aspect of the serie is not there as you watch the rest, I don't know. I enjoyed them a bit, just not as much.

As for Goyukin and Tenchu! I think I should watch them again... I wasn't in a very Samurai mood when I watched them. I remember the cinematography was great.

It's simple I want a good movie, with good swordplay.

Good swordplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObuvfQKPCsA
In this Mifune is fast and crisp. His feet are sturdy, he doesn't swing his sword with one arm like an idiot, and he strikes with assurance. That's what I'm looking for.

If the swordplay is not good, the movie has to reach the heights of a Harakiri or Seven Samurai, you know, the direction has to do rest, great story, great editing and great cinematography.

[Yakuza954]

All the films in that triolgy were fine films (Twilight Samurai, Hidden Blade & Love & Honor). But am I the only one who thought that "The Hidden Blade" was the best of the three? Ive heard alot of praise for "Twilight" and "Love & Honor", but "Hidden Blade" seems to have gotten the least praise. But I enjoyed that one the most.
After I saw Hidden Blade, I was torn on whether I liked it more than Twilight or not. The big reason I give Twilight Samurai the advantage is for being the "first" and original in the trilogy, and also perhaps because of Sanada's performance. That many not be fair though, as Masatoshi Nagase's performance is also top of the line stuff. To its credit, I think the Hidden Blade is the most rewarding of the three for fans of older martial arts movies because of the lead character's killer special technique and the training sequences with the "old master" type character.

[jiujitsu77]

Ono of my favourite samurai movies is Kill (Kiru). By turns both funny and tragic, after watching I felt I understood a little bit more about the human condition.

kiru is awesome. been looking to purchase that one for years after i rented it. can't find it anywhere. Nakadai is a great actor...almost underrated IMO.

if i remember correctly, kiru is a remake of sanjuro. i almost like it better than sanjuro.....almost

[Alex]

Kill! is not a remake of Sanjuro, but they are both based on the same novel called "peacefull days"

[venom10463]

Check out Mute Samurai and Bounty Hunter series... both stars Tomisaburo Wakayama. The swordplay is fast and well cheorograph. I would start off with Mute Samurai because it's more plot-driven. Be warned, 26 episodes and 45 mins ea episode.

[Yakuza954]

Good swordplay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObuvfQKPCsA
In this Mifune is fast and crisp. His feet are sturdy, he doesn't swing his sword with one arm like an idiot, and he strikes with assurance. That's what I'm looking for.

So in Seven Samurai when Mifune is swinging his sword with one arm and his feet aren't sturdy, that is bad swordplay choreography? Again, Mifune's character in that movie wasn't even a real samurai and by swinging his sword like that, it is a realistic depiction of how a person who wasn't a real swordsman would fight. In fact, the only character in that movie who would even be considered a "master samurai" by movie standards would be Kyuzo. The rest were mostly just normal samurai, so when you see one of them with a stance too wide, or with a sword swing that seems too slow, it's because they lack the technique of a Miyamoto Musashi. Being able to show this on film is very good choreography in my opinion. Sure, part of it is because the actors aren't real swordsmen themselves, but here it lends itself nicely--it suits the kind of rough, ugly look of a real fight that Akira Kurosawa was aiming for.

[daisho2004]

The Amazing Psycho Per: Go to the top of the Japanese section and look under "Samurai Movies & there Sequels" we did a lot of reviews there which should help you out.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

The Amazing Psycho Per: Go to the top of the Japanese section and look under "Samurai Movies & there Sequels" we did a lot of reviews there which should help you out.

I bowe in shame...

So in Seven Samurai when Mifune is swinging his sword with one arm and his feet aren't sturdy, that is bad swordplay choreography? Again, Mifune's character in that movie wasn't even a real samurai and by swinging his sword like that, it is a realistic depiction of how a person who wasn't a real swordsman would fight. In fact, the only character in that movie who would even be considered a "master samurai" by movie standards would be Kyuzo. The rest were mostly just normal samurai, so when you see one of them with a stance too wide, or with a sword swing that seems too slow, it's because they lack the technique of a Miyamoto Musashi. Being able to show this on film is very good choreography in my opinion. Sure, part of it is because the actors aren't real swordsmen themselves, but here it lends itself nicely--it suits the kind of rough, ugly look of a real fight that Akira Kurosawa was aiming for.

I totally agree, and that's why I retracted the word "weak" in a previous post. It's pretty obvious that Mifune's character is full of it and that he pretends to come from a long lineage of samurai, carrying around his oversized outdated sword, when he actually doesn't really know how to fight. The fact that I don't think the swordplay is exciting in seven samurai, doesn't diminish at all the fun I have to watch the movie. My problem when it comes to bad, or less exciting choreography, is when it comes to sub par or more ordinary movies, where it would be the only thing that could save. the movie.

[kungfusamurai]

I don't think Seven Samurai's choreography can be compared to movies from Yojimbo onwards because the evolution of the samurai film had changed it significantly by '61, and the way fight scenes were filmed also had changed. I tend not to prefer to watch the samurai flicks between Seven Samurai and Yojimbo because the fight choreography isn't to my liking. But from Yojimbo onwards, they were definitely done in a more stylish manner. I guess you could compare Seven Samurai's fight scenes to those films that show large battle scenes as opposed to one on one or one vs multiple opponent showdowns.

The Zatoichi films are in a league of their own, as are the Lone Wolf & Cub films. The swordsmanship of Shintaro Katsu and Tomisaburou Wakayama were unmatched as far as I'm concerned. The only films you can judge against Zatoichi are other Zatoichi films.

The best era for me were the films between '61 and around '74 when Kenji Misumi did his last film, 'The Last Samurai'. I think of those flicks as part of a 'Golden Era'. For some reason, I find samurai flicks from the late 70s onward don't have the same quality feel that the earlier Golden Era flicks had. Even a film like Shogun's Ninja, which I enjoy a lot, doesn't hold up against the worst of the Samurai flicks between '61 and '74 in terms of story, acting, etc... The fight scenes are more HK-ish, so in some respects they're better, but the story is sacrificed. Only the Kage No Gundan TV series seems to be in the same spirit of the Golden Era samurai film.

Of the recent samurai flicks, I only found that Twilight Samurai did the best job of capturing the essence of the Golden Era flicks. For me, a well made samurai flick doesn't depend solely on the fight scenes, but on the build up of tension, the acting, story, etc...

By the way, I'm also someone who didn't quite enjoy Goyokin or Tenchu. You also won't find Harakiri on my Top 10 list of fave samurai flicks either. I can't explain why those flicks don't resonate with me. I've just never warmed up to them. Incident At Blood Pass is another one that doesn't get me excited.

KFS

[GwaiLoMoFo]

Of the recent samurai flicks, I only found that Twilight Samurai did the best job of capturing the essence of the Golden Era flicks. For me, a well made samurai flick doesn't depend solely on the fight scenes, but on the build up of tension, the acting, story, etc...
I agree with your take on the classic samurai films from the "golden era" you refered to. Quick example..I just re-watched "Whirlwind" the other night, and the fight choreography is not flashy or exciting. But the film is so good on every other level it doesnt matter. When it comes to traditional Samurai films, the action is one of last things I look at.
By the way, I'm also someone who didn't quite enjoy Goyokin or Tenchu. You also won't find Harakiri on my Top 10 list of fave samurai flicks either. I can't explain why those flicks don't resonate with me. I've just never warmed up to them. Incident At Blood Pass is another one that doesn't get me excited.
I understand your feelings on "Incident At Blood Pass", I didnt care muich for that either. But man, "Harakiri" is one of my favorite films of all time (not just of the genre). Its just such a powerful film, it blew me away.

[kungfusamurai]

I understand your feelings on "Incident At Blood Pass", I didnt care muich for that either. But man, "Harakiri" is one of my favorite films of all time (not just of the genre). Its just such a powerful film, it blew me away.

I hear ya. I've really tried to enjoy Harakiri, but for some reason, I just can't get into it. Maybe it's because when I first watched it, I was expecting some kick as fight scenes, but the ending turned out to be a let down. It's strange because I enjoy many other samurai flicks that don't have much fighting, like Samurai Rebellion. Like I said, I can't exactly figure out what it is I don't like about Harakiri. I don't hate it or anything. It just doesn't make me want to take it out and watch it again and again.

KFS

[vengeanceofhumanlanterns]

"I can't exactly figure out what it is I don't like about Harakiri. I don't hate it or anything. It just doesn't make me want to take it out and watch it again and again."


I find any flicks of this genre, if there's not a lot of fighting, I give it a much longer break before watching it again. Not to say fighting alone carries a flick for me. The story, acting, presence, etc has to be there as well. Harakiri is an all time fave for me.

[kungfusamurai]

"I can't exactly figure out what it is I don't like about Harakiri. I don't hate it or anything. It just doesn't make me want to take it out and watch it again and again."


I find any flicks of this genre, if there's not a lot of fighting, I give it a much longer break before watching it again. Not to say fighting alone carries a flick for me. The story, acting, presence, etc has to be there as well. Harakiri is an all time fave for me.

I have no problem with little fighting. I think with Harakiri it might be the lack of a satisfying ending, now that I think of it. I was hoping he would successfully avenge his son's death, but in the end, it just seems like it's all back to square one with nothing having changed. I don't know if that was the intention of the filmmaker. It left me wondering why I invested 2 hrs watching this movie only to have it end in such a disappointing manner. Is it the message you're supposed to get out of it that if you or your family are caused harm by a strong force there's no point in rising up against it because you'll end up dying in the end so why even bother? I haven't watched it in a while, but I think that was my biggest beef with it.

KFS

[Yakuza954]

The whole movie was a denouncement of the samurai class and their idea of "honor." That's why the movie is called Harakiri, because Harakiri, the supposed most sacred samurai act, is shown as an ugly and useless thing thing that was mostly used to clean up dirty politics.

I'm glad Nakadai's character didn't survive in this movie. Not because I like to see people dying (well maybe I do), but because it fit the tone of this movie perfectly. He was already resigned to his fate that day, and knew very well that at the end of it, he'd be cutting open his stomach, just like how his son was forced to do. The entire final sequence where he shows the top-knots of all the clan members, fights his way into the most "sacred" room of the lord's house, and commits harakiri, was the prefect way for him to get his vengeance and disgrace the clan in the process. Had he survived, this message would have been nowhere near as powerful.

[kungfusamurai]

The whole movie was a denouncement of the samurai class and their idea of "honor." That's why the movie is called Harakiri, because Harakiri, the supposed most sacred samurai act, is shown as an ugly and useless thing thing that was mostly used to clean up dirty politics.

I'm glad Nakadai's character didn't survive in this movie. Not because I like to see people dying (well maybe I do), but because it fit the tone of this movie perfectly. He was already resigned to his fate that day, and knew very well that at the end of it, he'd be cutting open his stomach, just like how his son was forced to do. The entire final sequence where he shows the top-knots of all the clan members, fights his way into the most "sacred" room of the lord's house, and commits harakiri, was the prefect way for him to get his vengeance and disgrace the clan in the process. Had he survived, this message would have been nowhere near as powerful.

But in the end, he's still agreeing with the whole dirty system of how things are done. Sure, he takes a few people out with him, but he should be battling them until the bitter end because they've in essence become his enemy. That's just my feelings on the film. Like I said, I've tried to appreciate it for what it is, but compared to the many other samurai films out there from that era, I find the outcome just too bleak.

KFS

[Tosh]

Seppuku is my favorite all time movie, not just Japanese. I think by him throwing down the family armour at the end he disgraced them and every last one of their ancestors, which would be worse then him killing them. The fight in the wind swept field against Tetsuro Tamba was the best part of this movie.

[Yakuza954]

I think by him throwing down the family armour at the end he disgraced them and every last one of their ancestors, which would be worse then him killing them.
Not only that, but he DOES fight to the bitter end.. He doesn't commit Harakiri until he's surrounded by a new group of retainers that arrive armed with guns.

[waywardsage]

Seppuku is my favorite all time movie, not just Japanese. I think by him throwing down the family armour at the end he disgraced them and every last one of their ancestors, which would be worse then him killing them. The fight in the wind swept field against Tetsuro Tamba was the best part of this movie.

This is true, when he lifts the ancestors armour up at the end and parades it around, dripping blood all over it and throws it on the ground, he's absolutly disgracing the clan. It is probably the worst insult he could have given them. And basically makes them look like fools for not being able to protect it. Great scene. Amazing film.