DVD-R = Bootleg?

[The Silver Fox]

Seeing how the PanMedia issue is being discussed I figured it would be relevant to discuss DVD-R's and how they figure into things.

Okay,so the consensus seems to be that buying from bootleg distributors like VideoAsia,PanMedia etc. is wrong/ immoral/a bad thing to do/ etc. Okay fine. My question is if that is wrong, how can making a DVD-R of a commercial release and then selling or trading it be okay?

The reason I ask is because to me it's the same thing. You would think there would be a somewhat uniform consistency but I submit that alot of us in Kung Fu fandom suscribe to a morality of convenience. Some here rail on the evils of bootleg distributors yet wouldn't think twice about buying/selling/trading DVD-Rs.

Curious as to what others think.

[Blood Sword]

This is issue I have been thinking a lot and will do again in future.Buying bootlegs is bad but if doing so encourages shop to take into shelf legal releases it`s not all that bad.Downloading is best choice but not all items are available and not every1 wants to mess up with torrents meincluded...trading also if you make dvdr of copyrighted film a la ivl,golden harvest etc..and exchange it to film you are after not good either...
Buying legal release is best way to support industry which has small amount of customers and if legal not available then get it by other way...

[littlefuzzy]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is this:

First of all, from what I understand, many of the bootleg operations are funnelling money into Triads or other organized crime, including drug organizations. I really don't know if that applies to the bootleg MA dvds or not.

Second, if something IS readily available in the US (or whatever your country of origin is,) OR is readily available as a legitimate import, then it shouldn't be bootlegged. However, say something was released on a small run of VCD or DVDs 5-10 years ago (or even VHS even further back,) the publisher isn't making it any more, and it's hard to find... I have no problem with a fan in the community sharing that with other fans, either by trading, or even selling it for a nominal fee (say $5 or so to cover the cost of the disc and shipping.)

If someone had, say, the "ultimate edition" of Drunken Master with the uncut original audio, and accurate subs, I would love to get that. I've already bought the US disc, and I doubt I'll double dip with an import, as all the other versions appear to have various problems as well.

I have been aware of bootlegs in the Anime community for many years. Again, if it is something released in the US, then commercial bootlegs are bad. However, if it hasn't been licensed in the US, fan subs are great (preferrably as free downloads from usenet or torrents.)

For that matter, certain bootlegs of titles still under copyright in the US wold be acceptable to me, if there is no sign of a legitimate release ever coming - Song of the South, Porgy & Bess (with the musical numbers intact,) and so on. Still, I'd prefer not to support a bootleg company that may be tied to organized crime.

[Fightingfist]

Bootlegs not that good.

[lillippa328]

Way i see it is like this.......



I personally believe all these "bootleg" companies give the rightful owner a cut...other wise they would be stopped by now dont you think? I think they make more money buy letting the bootleggers mass produce it for them for cheaper, and they get a cut, and simultanteously release the legal versions here and there....for obvious reasons...


also...does Shaw even see money if I purchase a Celestial? I dont even think they do, and i know for a fact LKL and GL ect... dont......


and have this shit you cant find


i prefer the real versions but ill take what I find

[Morgoth Bauglir]

No company partners with Red Sun/Bonzai/Panmedia, and they don't get any cut. At least no company like Image, Dragon Dynasty, Media Blasters, Well Go USA… It just doesn’t make any sense. Red Sun/ DVDs don’t play a lot of the time, or they play, but then stop playing after a month or 2. Not all of them do that, but I have at least 10 Red Sun DVDs that I had to throw away because they don’t play anymore. Also when the pirate copies these movies, a lot of the time he messes up the transfer and the picture quality isn’t nearly as good as the original release (Executioners, 3 Evils...). Also, the audio is horrible on at least half of my Red Sun DVDs. I could go on and on with these problems, and no legit company would allow these types of problems on their DVDs, at least not consistently like Red Sun does. Trust me they get no cut. No legit company would be associated with Red Sun. After I found out Red Sun was a boot company, I decided to not support them anymore, but I figured that if I wanted an English dub, then it would be ok to buy from them. But then that really bit me in the ass and every DVD I bought from them had audio problems. The English dub on Brave Archer 2 is completely inaudible.

I agree with fuzzy, the only bootlegging or DVDR trading that should be done is on movies that are rare and don’t have a DVD release or are out of print. If you want to keep buying these crappy DVDs and and let Red Sun hurt the chances for legit releases, then go ahead.

Also, if you have any legit Shaw releases, then it is a print from Celestial. SB got their money. No need to worry about that.

[nectarsis]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is this:

First of all, from what I understand, many of the bootleg operations are funnelling money into Triads or other organized crime, including drug organizations. I really don't know if that applies to the bootleg MA dvds or not.

Second, if something IS readily available in the US (or whatever your country of origin is,) OR is readily available as a legitimate import, then it shouldn't be bootlegged. However, say something was released on a small run of VCD or DVDs 5-10 years ago (or even VHS even further back,) the publisher isn't making it any more, and it's hard to find... I have no problem with a fan in the community sharing that with other fans, either by trading, or even selling it for a nominal fee (say $5 or so to cover the cost of the disc and shipping.)

If someone had, say, the "ultimate edition" of Drunken Master with the uncut original audio, and accurate subs, I would love to get that. I've already bought the US disc, and I doubt I'll double dip with an import, as all the other versions appear to have various problems as well.

I have been aware of bootlegs in the Anime community for many years. Again, if it is something released in the US, then commercial bootlegs are bad. However, if it hasn't been licensed in the US, fan subs are great (preferrably as free downloads from usenet or torrents.)

For that matter, certain bootlegs of titles still under copyright in the US wold be acceptable to me, if there is no sign of a legitimate release ever coming - Song of the South, Porgy & Bess (with the musical numbers intact,) and so on. Still, I'd prefer not to support a bootleg company that may be tied to organized crime.

Yet many of the movies were originally financed/produced/directed/etc. by triads ;)

Just sayin lol

[Killer Meteor]

I doubt most bootlegs are connected with traids or terrorists

As I say time and time again, the problem with Panmedia is that they sold their goods in legit stores, thus cutting into the market for legit dvds. Some goon in a car boot sale, or trading online, is not an issue for the legit companies.

And talking of DVD-Rs, Warners is now releasing some of its back catalogue on DVD-R only at extortionate prices

[kungfusamurai]

And talking of DVD-Rs, Warners is now releasing some of its back catalogue on DVD-R only at extortionate prices

I remember hearing somewhere about them offering movies from their vaults as a direct order. They certainly can't factory press it if it's on a per order basis. My concern is what kind of guarantee do they have with these DVDRs? If they used cheap discs that break down after a couple of years, will they replace the defects?

KFS

[Mark Pollard]

Our policy on the forums, which is line with my opinion on the matter, is that bootleg or DVD-R selling or trading of specific cuts that can be purchased through legitimate channels is bad for the industry and consumers and should not be supported by fans. However, public domain or out-of-print cuts of films are fair game for trade but should not be sold for profit, at least on this site.

This is why we take a hard stance on PanMedia/Red Sun around here because they bootleg indiscriminately, in such a way that is directly harmful to the industry. Not to mention, their shady marketing and shoddy authoring as others have suggested.

Fans should be purchasing legit versions of remastered Golden Harvest and Shaw Brothers, although I don't have a problem with seeing people trading copies of the old English-dubbed VHS versions. A lot of the original English dub tracks have not been re-released officially.

There is a lot of confusion over the status of independent films which in my mind makes most of them fair game. For instance, Tai Seng supposedly holds the rights to a selection of indie titles purchased from the Ocean Shores library. These titles comprise their Martial Arts Theaters series. However, they purchased rights years ago and Ocean Shores long ago ceased to exist as a functioning business. So does Tai Seng now own the rights to these films indefinitely by default? I doubt it, yet they still keep repackaging them and releasing them. Many of the indie kung fu films were long ago sold off or abandoned by their original owners in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

[falkor]

Well said, Mark!

[David Rees]

Again well said Mark, just a question why does this site have adverts for HK Flix when they openly sell and promote Red Sun etc?...just curious

[The Silver Fox]

Mark, I think you've explained things in a very sensible fashion. Thanks.

[HAZ]

PanMedia is not cool, but what they sell in a drop in the bucket compared to what goes on in Toronto's Chinatown on a Saturday afternoon.

[Tosh]

I remember Linn explaining sometime ago about the merits of the fan subbers and their place on this forum when all the drama unfolded in the Samurai section.

You have to ask why we get 30 collector editions of Seven Samurai over the years when other great movies will never see the light of day.

[Mark Pollard]

Again well said Mark, just a question why does this site have adverts for HK Flix when they openly sell and promote Red Sun etc?...just curious

I have had a very long relationship with HKFlix that pre-dates PanMedia/Red Sun. I do not agree with their decision to carry these products or their aggressive promotion of them and I have voiced my opinion strongly to the owners and to the public. What has kept me from walking away is their policy to remove any bootleg titles or gray market imports that a licensed distributor asks them to. It is my belief that in the case of kung fu movies it is the responsibility of copyright owners to protect their own assets and the responsibility of consumers to make informed decisions.

You won't see me promoting PanMedia products but I will speak out against them while promoting other legit products sold by HKFlix.

As of right now, licensed distributors are doing very little to address this problem and some consumers are ending up with exactly what they sought out and paid for, shoddy bootlegs that are often flawed and not even worth the $10 they spent. I have more sympathy for consumers who end up with faked knockoffs of legit product from shady eBay sellers.

Policing of copyrights cannot be left to retailers, web site owners or consumers, not when bootlegging of kung fu movies have been going on in plain view for over 20 years without contention. Basic supply and demand will always win. Licensed distributors simply need to step up their game. Yet this will never happen except in limited cases because kung fu movies remain a niche market that would be virtually nonexistent today without bootlegs.

My policy at the moment is to highlight quality products that do support the industry while educating the public about what not to buy. Because PanMedia/Red Sun products are still sold at a variety of retailers, dropping my association for one of them is not going to solve the problem. As always, the free market needs to sort itself out.

I'll be honest though, I don't want one shitty distributor to end my relationship with HKFlix. They have been a longtime sponsor of this site and I know for a fact they have the same passion for this genre that I do. Believe me, I'm not in this to get rich or else I would have quit long ago. But especially in this economy where ad sales are down, this site needs the small revenue from affiliates to stay in operation and remain free for its users.

[lillippa328]

so could sombody explain how Video Asia, Red Sun, ect are "bootlegs"? Is Tai Seng Bootlegs? How are they? ive never completly understood

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Bootlegging is selling movies when you don’t have rights to do it. Red Sun is the worst offender because they steal people’s hard work and it makes it harder for legit titles to get released because companies probably figure that people already have the bootleg version. Videoasia, I don’t if Toby is ok with George Tan selling all of that stuff or what. Someone else would have to comment on that.

[Mark Pollard]

I don't think it's possible to completely understand and this is why taking a hard stance in all but a few instances ends up being a pointless arbitrary decision. There are hundreds of discarded films that various entities have acquired in one form or another and claimed as theirs to redistribute.

I'm not saying Tai Seng is dealing in bootlegs. What I'm saying is that it has gotten extremely difficult to know whether or not a distributor legally has the right to redistribute virtually any classic-era kung fu movie apart from re-mastered Golden Harvest and Shaw films due to ill-defined or expired international copyrights.

Several years ago, World Video claimed ownership of hundreds of Chinese films but they were all original mainland cuts that were at least a decade old. They tried putting out some of Jet Li's early wushu films but they did not have rights to the remastered Hong Kong prints which were being distributed by Mei Ah. They had obviously dealt with a different company but who knows whether their claim was still valid or not? Whoever is running World Video today probably still claims rights to these films, even though the physical masters are these decrepit mainland prints with burned-in subtitles.

Most regional distribution rights have an expiration date. This is why Animeigo, one of the more responsible indie distributors of Asian films in the U.S. will actually state when they have lost or reacquired a license. Other distributors take more liberties.

Many of the companies that originally produced and sold or distributed films and film rights overseas never thought about long-term profitability, assuming the companies are even still in business. This, plus the generally limited profit potential of these films is what allows bottom feeders like Video Asia and PanMedia to operate with impunity. Nobody really knows what the hell is going on with film rights and it's apparently not worth anyone's money to sort it out in the legal system, so opportunists have stepped in to profit from the chaos and some, like PanMedia/Red Sun have gone too far by messing with remastered cuts of licensed product that is still in circulation, as well as cuts from other independent distributors. That's why you have people complaining more about PanMedia/Red Sun than other distributors that are also dealing in bootlegs. Call it the breaking of a pirate code of conduct, if there is such a thing.

By the way, if someone really does have a better handle on this topic I'd love to see it. I've talked to distributors, retailers and private collectors and while they all have opinions, no one has voiced any clearer answers. The general consensus seems to be that as long as money is being made and no law suits are incoming why make a fuss?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I’ve heard companies don’t sue Red Sun because it would end up costing them even more money in the long run having to go to court. Seems logical to me, but it would be nice if someone came on with some definitive answers. And VIdeoasia and Panmedia are way different IMO. Videoasia releases are mostly bad quality stuff that they transfer from a VHS, while Panmedia uses Celestial prints, but unlike legit companies, you don’t see the Celestial logo on the DVD.

Whoops, I read your post a little fast, I think I just repeated a lot of what you said. My bad.

While I'm talking to you Mark, just wondering, do you think we can get a poll going to go back to regular smile faces? These monkey smiles, are, um, they are just too weird for me.

[Mark Pollard]

Too weird?!

:yociexpress06:

Sure, I can add some old school smilies. :smile2:

[lillippa328]

I’ve heard companies don’t sue Red Sun because it would end up costing them even more money in the long run having to go to court. Seems logical to me, but it would be nice if someone came on with some definitive answers. And VIdeoasia and Panmedia are way different IMO. Videoasia releases are mostly bad quality stuff that they transfer from a VHS, while Panmedia uses Celestial prints, but unlike legit companies, you don’t see the Celestial logo on the DVD.

Whoops, I read your post a little fast, I think I just repeated a lot of what you said. My bad.

While I'm talking to you Mark, just wondering, do you think we can get a poll going to go back to regular smile faces? These monkey smiles, are, um, they are just too weird for me.


i hate video asia...its the most shit bootleg ive ever seen!


and question...if Video Asia is a bootleg company...why does Gordon Liu do work for them?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Gordon probably got payed.

Videoasia I don’t really have a problem with. DO they have rights to the movies they sell? Probably not. VIdeoasia DVDs are notorious for not working, but I think they have finally learned how to make the discs work, because all of the Essential collections play just fine, along with all of their other releases in the past year or two. If they keep up the good work then I may be able to forgive them for my Little Superman and Chinese Mack discs not working anymore. Maybe.

Thanks for the normal smiles Mark. I swear I don't have an evil plan or anything that I need these smiles for :xd:

[lillippa328]

Gordon probably got payed.

Videoasia I don’t really have a problem with. DO they have rights to the movies they sell? Probably not. VIdeoasia DVDs are notorious for not working, but I think they have finally learned how to make the discs work, because all of the Essential collections play just fine, along with all of their other releases in the past year or two. If they keep up the good work then I may be able to forgive them for my Little Superman and Chinese Mack discs not working anymore. Maybe.

Thanks for the normal smiles Mark. I swear I don't have an evil plan or anything that I need these smiles for :xd:


i will never forgive them for my "Insta Action Only" Dance of the Drunken Mantis! Its awful!

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Yeah that insta action messed up a lot of their DVDs. Have you seen the movie? The quality on the version that comes in the essentials volume 1 is quite good. Check it out.

[Atherton]

so could sombody explain how Video Asia, Red Sun, ect are "bootlegs"? Is Tai Seng Bootlegs? How are they? ive never completly understood

yeah it seems there's a lot of things you don't understand

[WuxiaFan]

Mark,
You've made a lot of excellent points about bootlegging, distribution rights, etc. in this thread! I'm also very glad you explained your relationship with HKFlix. For me, I didn't know about HKFlix until I discovered KFC in 2002. Between you and HKFlix, that's where I learned about going region-free, PAL and NTSC, finding the best versions of movies, supporting legitimate distributors and learning about bootleggers. :nerd:

The entire "bootlegging/PanMedia/Red Sun" topic pops up as a thread in almost every Category on this Forum. So, there's information and posts scattered all over the place and if a thread falls to page 2 and beyond, a new member will likely post a new thread asking about PanMedia/Red Sun. Suggest making this a new Forum Category and move all of the threads to that Category. That should minimize new threads in other categories from being posted and it will give new Forum members a place to go to read about PanMedia/Red Sun/bootlegging. There's a lot of important information in a lot of threads that new members need to know about not supporting these scum suckers and to support legitimate distributors.

Thanks for getting rid of the monkeys and putting the regular smiles back! :xd:

[Morgoth Bauglir]

OMG no, we do not need a Red Sun forum. I think all those threads should just be merged together to make one long thread.

[lillippa328]

yeah it seems there's a lot of things you don't understand



I hate this guy man...every fucking thread you have to try to take shots at me...your like a jelous ex-girl friend or somthing man seriously...its pathetic....who the heck are you? Who? Are you Run Run Shaw? Are you the president of Celestial or somthing?


If Gordon Liu, and Wang Yu, David Chiang all these people dont care about these so called "Bootleg" companies like Video Asia putting out THEIR movies, why should YOU? From what I have come to understand, these companies are completley legit and im just having a hard time understanding how they arnt! People say there are loop holes and its easy to bootleg or whatever, i can understand the old school titles maybe being easy, but what about Ong Bak 2, Ip Man, Warlords, Red Cliff, ect...how can they be "Bootlegd" and distributed with out anybody knowing or doing somting about it. Im sure John Woo would have became aware and stopped it dont you think?


I usually always pick up the Celestials or Fortune Star, Dragon Dynasty or whatever, simply because im a sucker for special features...but i do have some Red Sun, Tai Seng, Video Asia, Xenon, just like I have plenty of DVD-R's that i have aquired through purchases on this site.


Im a fan 1st and foremost. I will buy what I want, when I want it, and how I want it. If there is a remastered 10 Tigers from Kwantung from Redsun in front of me, and a Shaw Scope version of 10 Tigers, im picking up the remastered one, simply because it is a clear and better picture!



Like i said countless amounts of times, its not like any of our favorite actors and directors are seeing any of this money at all anyways! All the poor Shaw actors arnt even rich! Making so many films in so little time, and have so little to show for it, other than respect from a fanbase such as us...

[OldPangYau]

Im a fan 1st and foremost. I will buy what I want, when I want it, and how I want it. If there is a remastered 10 Tigers from Kwantung from Redsun in front of me, and a Shaw Scope version of 10 Tigers, im picking up the remastered one, simply because it is a clear and better picture!

*psst* Look to the left of the Red Sun 10 Tigers, and you'll find a legit Media Blasters one next to it :wink:

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I hate this guy man...every fucking thread you have to try to take shots at me...your like a jelous ex-girl friend or somthing man seriously...its pathetic....who the heck are you? Who? Are you Run Run Shaw? Are you the president of Celestial or somthing?


If Gordon Liu, and Wang Yu, David Chiang all these people dont care about these so called "Bootleg" companies like Video Asia putting out THEIR movies, why should YOU? From what I have come to understand, these companies are completley legit and im just having a hard time understanding how they arnt! People say there are loop holes and its easy to bootleg or whatever, i can understand the old school titles maybe being easy, but what about Ong Bak 2, Ip Man, Warlords, Red Cliff, ect...how can they be "Bootlegd" and distributed with out anybody knowing or doing somting about it. Im sure John Woo would have became aware and stopped it dont you think?


I usually always pick up the Celestials or Fortune Star, Dragon Dynasty or whatever, simply because im a sucker for special features...but i do have some Red Sun, Tai Seng, Video Asia, Xenon, just like I have plenty of DVD-R's that i have aquired through purchases on this site.


Im a fan 1st and foremost. I will buy what I want, when I want it, and how I want it. If there is a remastered 10 Tigers from Kwantung from Redsun in front of me, and a Shaw Scope version of 10 Tigers, im picking up the remastered one, simply because it is a clear and better picture!



Like i said countless amounts of times, its not like any of our favorite actors and directors are seeing any of this money at all anyways! All the poor Shaw actors arnt even rich! Making so many films in so little time, and have so little to show for it, other than respect from a fanbase such as us...





Yeah Atherton took a jab at you. I didn't know he did it in every thread, but anyways, it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. I'm not trying to be negative here, I'm just telling the truth. I would go over all that you said in your last post, but to be honest I'm tired of explxaining this, and there's better people to explain it than me. I mean lets be logical here and I'll respond to one of your points for an example. Do you really think that the person who runs Panmedia/Red Sun/Bonzai has a connection with directors and other people that allow him to release all these new movies like Ong Bak 2 and Red Cliff? Or do you think he has a connection with all the legit companies and they just let PAnmedia release all those movies? That's a lot of people he would have to know! Because PAnmedia has A LOT of new movies they've booted. Like I said before, go ahead and buy the boots and hurt the chances of seeing releases that are actually good releases. I can't stop you, so just continue buying them already. But don't come on here and try to make excuses on why you think what Panmedia is doing is ok. Because you are really reaching. But if you come up with some good points, this will be a much better discussion.

[lillippa328]

Yeah Atherton took a jab at you. I didn't know he did it in every thread, but anyways, it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. I'm not trying to be negative here, I'm just telling the truth. I would go over all that you said in your last post, but to be honest I'm tired of explxaining this, and there's better people to explain it than me. Like I said before, go ahead and buy the boots and hurt the chances of seeing releases that are actually good releases. I can't stop you, so just continue buying them already. But don't come on here and try to make excuses on why you think what Panmedia is doing is ok. Because you are really reaching. But if you come up with some good points, this will be a much better discussion.



yea its cool man, its a difference between being informative and being a prick...im still trying to figure all this out i mean, other than this site, i really dont hear anything else about Red Sun being boot legs and all, you know? And it just kinda puzzles me because you would think that after all these years sombody wouldve done somthing about it..with these movies being all over, ebay, stores, malls, fye's, suncoast, moviestops, everywhere...

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I hear you. WHen I first found Red Sun DVDs, it was before I found this forum, it was before there were legit DVD companies releasing remastered Shaws in America, and I thought they were the greatest thing ever. I didn't know how to tell the difference between a legit releases and a boot. I mean when you see a Shaw movie and it looks that beautiful, it's easy to latch onto a company like that. I kept buying and buying, but I started noticing problems with the DVDs. Major glitches, too many things to go over. THis is where I have to stop talking about this subject before the rage takes over.

And just so you know, don't tell anybody this, but I used to think Lung Fei and Wang Lung Wei were the same person. Thank goodness I found this forum:bigsmile:

[ThunderScore]

I used to think Lung Fei and Wang Lung Wei were the same person.

Did you know that in EXIT THE DRAGON, ENTER THE TIGER Lung Fei plays a character named... LUNG FEI...

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I didn't know that, and I've seen the movie, unfortunately:tongue:

[WuxiaFan]

OMG no, we do not need a Red Sun forum. I think all those threads should just be merged together to make one long thread.

Then we'll continue to see new threads with:

"Hey, I'm thinking about buying the Panmedia/Red Sun version of "_____________". What do you think of that version?" Then all of us are posting the same answers over and over.:ooh:

I thought it make sense to have 1 forum to house all of the information. There's a lot information in a lot of different threads. People won't read one long thread with 500-1000 posts in it. I wouldn't. I would just start a new thread, which is what happens now.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Just make one sticky thread, saying PANMEDIA SUCKS DONKEYBALLS!!! DON*T BUY EM'!!!

People who wants to buy them, are gonna buy them! But I still think it is good to deter newcomers, although I am also tired of the same damn questions over and over again!

[The Silver Fox]

Actually, this thread was mainly about the hypocrisy that exists in the world of kung fu fandom. Pan Media was merely used as an example. The real topic was DVD-Rs and those that traffic in them yet place themselves of lofty plains of specialty cinema;those that portray themselves as individuals who wouldn't even think of consorting with known bootleggers.

My point is that every time you trade/sell/buy DVD-Rs of movies that can be obtained from legit sources you are doing the same thing so it's absurd to condemn one form of bootlegging and approve of another.

There is a gray area in the case of out of print titles where the copyright is unknown, etc. I think Mark explained that in his post.

I'm talking about trading current titles that can be gotten easily,from legit sources.

My own personal feeling is that I will buy a legit DVD if it is available. I will also buy a bootleg if it is available if no other option is there. I will also buy a bootleg if it is superior to the only legit release available.In other words, I'll buy whatever best,most available version.

[WuxiaFan]

Actually, this thread was mainly about the hypocrisy that exists in the world of kung fu fandom. Pan Media was merely used as an example. The real topic was DVD-Rs and those that traffic in them yet place themselves of lofty plains of specialty cinema;those that portray themselves as individuals who wouldn't even think of consorting with known bootleggers.

My point is that every time you trade/sell/buy DVD-Rs of movies that can be obtained from legit sources you are doing the same thing so it's absurd to condemn one form of bootlegging and approve of another.

There is a gray area in the case of out of print titles where the copyright is unknown, etc. I think Mark explained that in his post.

I'm talking about trading current titles that can be gotten easily,from legit sources.

My own personal feeling is that I will buy a legit DVD if it is available. I will also buy a bootleg if it is available if no other option is there. I will also buy a bootleg if it is superior to the only legit release available.In other words, I'll buy whatever best,most available version.

This thread is all over the place which is why I suggested consolidating the topic somehow.

But to stay on topic, you make a good point about trading/buying/selling DVD-Rs. I'm OK with it as long as the DVD-R is not billed as a legitimate version, like what Panmedia/RedSun does. I have a problem with labels that try to pass their bootlegs off as legitimate versions. I don't have a problem as long as I know what I'm buying, such as in the case of fareastflix.com. They bill their DVD-Rs as "custom DVDs" so I know what I'm getting. :smile:

Agree with you on buying whatever is the best, most available version of a movie, but only in circumstances where I'm looing for a particular movie and its just not available and slim to none that it will ever get a legit release. (i.e. THE BLADE and PEDICAB DRIVER). :crossedlips:

[Atherton]

I only take jabs at people who make excuses for supporting people like Pan Media/Red Sun...

[lillippa328]

Actually, this thread was mainly about the hypocrisy that exists in the world of kung fu fandom. Pan Media was merely used as an example. The real topic was DVD-Rs and those that traffic in them yet place themselves of lofty plains of specialty cinema;those that portray themselves as individuals who wouldn't even think of consorting with known bootleggers.

My point is that every time you trade/sell/buy DVD-Rs of movies that can be obtained from legit sources you are doing the same thing so it's absurd to condemn one form of bootlegging and approve of another.

There is a gray area in the case of out of print titles where the copyright is unknown, etc. I think Mark explained that in his post.

I'm talking about trading current titles that can be gotten easily,from legit sources.

My own personal feeling is that I will buy a legit DVD if it is available. I will also buy a bootleg if it is available if no other option is there. I will also buy a bootleg if it is superior to the only legit release available.In other words, I'll buy whatever best,most available version.


Agree! Thank you!

[Mark Pollard]

The entire "bootlegging/PanMedia/Red Sun" topic pops up as a thread in almost every Category on this Forum. So, there's information and posts scattered all over the place and if a thread falls to page 2 and beyond, a new member will likely post a new thread asking about PanMedia/Red Sun. Suggest making this a new Forum Category and move all of the threads to that Category.

I like the idea of locking new Pan Media/Red Sun threads and keeping one open for continued discussion and reference.

Thanks for getting rid of the monkeys and putting the regular smiles back! :xd:

The monkeys may have left the main editor page but they're still lurking one page click away.

:khi9m:

[Atherton]

Agree! Thank you!

Yes! Me too!

[WhiteTiger1]

Seeing how the PanMedia issue is being discussed I figured it would be relevant to discuss DVD-R's and how they figure into things.

Okay,so the consensus seems to be that buying from bootleg distributors like VideoAsia,PanMedia etc. is wrong/ immoral/a bad thing to do/ etc. Okay fine. My question is if that is wrong, how can making a DVD-R of a commercial release and then selling or trading it be okay?

The reason I ask is because to me it's the same thing. You would think there would be a somewhat uniform consistency but I submit that alot of us in Kung Fu fandom suscribe to a morality of convenience. Some here rail on the evils of bootleg distributors yet wouldn't think twice about buying/selling/trading DVD-Rs.Curious as to what others think.

Bootlegs saved this Genre, if it weren't for boots most would not have the collections they have now...Movies that are out of print are open game, only way to get copies is to trade with those who have copies.Video/DVD-R+R . Selling Bootlegs are only fair when the other person knows what they are getting. And should only be done with out of print movies.
My two cents:wink:

[The Dragon]

Agree! Thank you!

Yes! Me too!

:bigsmile:

[MattC]

After going through these 5 pages and reading everything I'm still quite lost. Besides going by what I can find at BestBuy, Wal-Mart or online at places like NetFlix I still have no idea on what has been "officially" released on dvd and what is a "bootleg". Collecting non martial arts footage for the last 6 or 7 years has made me aware of a real dvd from one that looks real, until you look at the play side. If I was to go to Ebay right now and find a seller with a list of dvds where I could go through and pick one to buy, I wouldn't know for sure if it was a real dvd or a fake dvdr until I got it home and looked at it. I guess what I am trying to say is, there needs to be a thread or something with all the known real releases so people like myself who are still pretty new to collecting martial art videos could have some guide to go by :bigsmile:

[remo]

If I was to go to Ebay right now and find a seller with a list of dvds where I could go through and pick one to buy, I wouldn't know for sure if it was a real dvd or a fake dvdr until I got it home and looked at it.

Go to eBay and search for "Pedicab Driver." All the results you see are bootlegs, and there are various telltale signs to that effect:


It has an English dub yet no region code. Generally a Western release will be region coded.
If you look closely at the photo, there's no distributor logo plastered on the front cover as there often is for most official releases (Western or HK). Not always the case, but something to look for -- you can compare with the official covers.
Check the seller's feedback, if they're selling bootlegs there's a decent chance someone has called them out.
Price
If you did some research, you'd find that Pedicab Driver has never officially been released on DVD if I recall correctly.

[MattC]

Thanks for the help

[Fang Shih-yu]

Thanks for that info, remo ! The main point is to do research on any given movie's availability if you aren't certain whether it's "bootleg" or not! Enough looking around on various sites, not to mention the great feedback you can find on forums like here :wink:, should get you all the information to determine what DVDs are legit, "Public Domain" or "bootleg"!... In the case of Panmedia/Red Sun/BonZai/whatever Shaw DVDs, all their packaging doesn't include the Celestial Pictures logo on it, which is the dead giveaway it's a "bootleg"!... Well-- that and the HORRIBLE layouts on the DVDs' sleeves!:tongue:

[HongKongMaster]

this board openly support bootlegging, just go to the trade/ sell sections, people openly asked for dvd-r and peoples openly trade them no matter what company

just look markgay trade list

DVD-R (Chinese)

After This Our Exile - HK Cinema Version (C/S, 16:9)
All's Well, Ends Well 2009 (C/S, 16:9)
Angel-Hunter (C/S)
Apartment for Ladies (M/S, 16:9)
Arrest the Restless (C/S)
The Attractive One (C/S, 16:9)
AV - 2-discs (C/S, 16:9)
Bad Blood (C/S, 16:9)
Beauty & the 7 Beasts (C/S, 16:9)
The Beauty's Evil Rose (C/S) *Poor quality
Beloved Son of God (C/S)
The Big Boss (M/S; 16:9)
The Black Belt (M/S)
Black Cat II (C/S, 16:9)
Black Panther (E, 16:9)
Bloody Beast (C/S)
Brother of Darkness (C/S)
The Brutal Boxer - Uncut (E) *Some Italian
Burning Sensation (C/S; 16:9)
Cash on Delivery (C/S)
Casino Tycoon II (C/S, 16:9)
The Cave of Silken Web (M/S; 16:9)
China Armed Escort (M/S) *Poor quality
The Chinese Stuntman (E)
The Closet (C/S, 16:9)
Code of Honour aka Brotherhood (C/S)
Cold-Blooded Murder (E)
The Concrete Jungle (M/S) *Very poor
The Contract (C/S, 16:9)
Cop Busters (C/S)
Diary (C/S; 16:9)
The Dragon Lives Again (E) *Poor quality
Dress Off for Life (C/S)
Driving Miss Wealthy (C/S, 16:9)
Drunken Master 3 (C/S)/Breakout from Oppression (E)
Duel at the Supreme Gate (M/S, 16:9)
Election 2 (C/S, 16:9)
Enter the Game of Death (E)
Erotic Ghost Story II (C/S, 16:9)
Female Fugitive (M/S)
Fist of Fury III (E)
Four Robbers/Infernal Street (E)
From Riches to Rags (C/S, 16:9)
Front Page (C/S)
The Generation Gap (M/S, 16:9)
A Girl Named Iron Phoenix (E) *Very poor quality
Girls without Tomorrow (C/S; 16:9)
The Good, the Bad, and the Loser (E)
Guns & Roses (C/S)
The Happenings (C/S, 16:9)
Hired Guns (C/S, 16:9)
Honor and Love (E)
How to Pick Girls Up! (C/S, 16:9)
Human Pork Chop (C/S)
I Want to Go on Living (C/S)
Immortal Story (C/S)
Itchy Heart (C/S)
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, World (C/S, 16:9)
Ju Dou (M/S)
Kung Fu Master Named Drunk Cat (E)
The Land of Many Perfumes (M/S, 16:9)
The Last Message (C/S; 16:9)
The Law Enforcer (C/S, 16:9)
Lifetimes aka To Live (M/S)
Lost Romance AKA Rose (C/S)
Love in Sampan (C/S)
Love Massacre (C/S)
The Magic Crane (M/S)
A Man Called Tiger - Uncut HK version (M/S, LTBX)
Midnight Zone (C/S)
The Mighty Gambler (C/S)
Miles Apart (C/S, LTBX)
Mini-Skirt Gang (M/S, LTBX)
A Moment of Romance III (C/S, 16:9)
Mr. Cinema (C/S; 16:9)
Murderer (C/S; 16:9)
Never Ending Summer (C/S, 16:9)
Ninja Fist of Fire (The Fist that Kills) (E)
No Compromise (C/S, 16:9)
The Orchid (M/S)
The Other Side of Gentleman (C/S; 16:9)
Perfect Girls (C/S, 16:9)
Perfect Match - 1991 (C/S)
Point the Finger of Death (E, LTBX) *Poor quality
Poker King (C/S, 16:9)
Possessed II (C/S, 16:9)
Prince Charming - 1999 (C/S)
The Proud Twins (C/S, 16:9)
Raped by an Angel 5 (C/S; 16:9)
Rebellion (C/S, 16:9)
Red Cliff I - Uncut (M/S, 16:9)
Red Cliff II - Uncut (M/S, 16:9)
The Red Wolf (C/S)/The Awaken Punch (E)
Redbeard (M/S) *Very poor
Resurrection of the Dragon (M/S, 16:9)
Right Here Waiting... (C/S)
River of Tears (M/S, 16:9)
Run, Tiger, Run (M/S, 16:9)
Seven Angels (C/S)
Seven 2 One (C/S, 16:9)
The Storm Warriors (C/S, 16:9)
Sun Dragon (E)
Superior Darter (M/S) *Audio right speaker only
Super Dragon (AKA Dynasty) (E, 1.66, Poorish quality, Not 3-D)
Temptation of a Monk (M/S)
Ten Tigers of Shaolin (E)
Teppanyaki (C/S)
That's Adultery (M/S), 16:9)
Theft Under the Sun (C/S)
Tiger & Crane Fists (E) *Poor quality
Till Death Do Us Part (C/S, 16:9)
A Time for Love (M/S, 16:9)
Twenty Something (C/S)
The Twins Effect II (C/S, 16:9)
Why Me? (C/S)

it's really something and he's not the only one

often it's "hey i want this dvd, don't care for dvd-r PM me"

this site sucks for cautionning bootleging

[remo]

The main point is to do research on any given movie's availability if you aren't certain whether it's "bootleg" or not! Enough looking around on various sites, not to mention the great feedback you can find on forums like here :wink:, should get you all the information to determine what DVDs are legit, "Public Domain" or "bootleg"!...

To MattC's point though, how many people are going to have that knowledge, or put in that sort of effort... heck, how many are even aware of what a bootleg is? (or care, for that matter)

Ebay is always going to be dicey, because even if the seller shows one thing in the description there's no guarantee that it's what they'll actually send you. Best you can do is just look for trustworthy stores/dealers and hope for the best.

I don't really care about dubs (unless we're talking old Shaw nostalgia), so I do most of my shopping at stores like DDDHouse.com or Yesasia.com. Here you're reasonably guaranteed that their merchandise is going to be legit, and the prices are decent.

[ekisha]

this board openly support bootlegging, just go to the trade/ sell sections, people openly asked for dvd-r and peoples openly trade them no matter what company

just look markgay trade list

it's really something and he's not the only one

often it's "hey i want this dvd, don't care for dvd-r PM me"

this site sucks for cautionning bootleging

Who is markgay? I haven't seen such a username here.

As for dvd-r if you don't like it you can always ignore it. After all no one forces you to trade with dvd-r traders. Besides, these big companies don't give a shit about us. If it would be the case they should visit these forums and ask us about how they should release some movies properly, instead of putting bad audio mixes and shitty subs. There are some rare movies on hk auction sites. I used to buy originals from there, but prices were too expensive. Now, i don't have such money, let's say 100$ per disc, so that means i can't see these movies? No. I don't think so. Maybe my preference is cruel for companies to make a profit? Cruelty is in our bloods, we can't change the fact, at least i don't deny it.

P.S. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do bootlegs or trade dvd-r. It's just a choice of your own conscience.

[MattC]

Thanks again everyone for the help. It's much appreciated