Conversations with T.F. Mou

[Stuntman Jules]

The interview segments for the new documentary I'm doing about T.F. Mou (Men Behind the Sun) called Conversations with T.F. Mou were shot two days ago and the film is now entering post production. Expect a trailer in two weeks (moving to the city in a week so can't really do much editing for now) and the finished film by Halloween. It will be on self-published DVD available on my website by the good ol' Christmas season like with the currently available disc of my short films.

Some info on my blog:
http://genyfilms.blogspot.com/2009/0...-segments.html

I actually could use some help from anybody who can. Does anybody have any old T.F. Mou related stuff (particularly from the Shaw Brothers days)? Like behind the scenes pictures of his films shooting in Southern Screen and that sort of thing? If anyone could donate some scans of anything like that it would be great.

I also could use more material for his film Bank Busters, his unreleased on Celestial Shaw film and his personal favorite of his works from those days. Pictures (from Southern Screen or whatever) and ads would be nice. I saw some Bank Busters lobby cards on Ebay but I can't find the auction anymore. Even the jpegs from that would be great.

Anyone who donates stuff like that will get a "special thanks" credit at the end of the movie.

[Stuntman Jules]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q1XCfYnjiM

^^
Trailer!

[Knetan]

hey,

very well done and you seem to cover the appropriate subjects, even the tough ones. And THAT'S being a fan. Let us know of your progress.

[KUNG FU BOB]

I'm sending you a PM.

[Stuntman Jules]

http://www.jlcarrozza.com/tfmou.html

It's almost done. Should be complete in work print form in September for a premiere that Mou will be present at. He loves what he's seen so far.

It has a new title: Black Sunshine: Conversations with T.F. Mou. Making it was a logistical nightmare that followed Murphy's Law to a tee at times, but I survived it with an intact completed product, which is what matters. This is probably the last doco I'm making for a while, I want to make a Kinji Fukasaku chronicle but that's gonna have to wait several years until my wounds from this are healed.

I'm selling it on DVD-R off my website come this X-Mas so you can merrily sing Silent Night while running around Nanking with a machine gun and bayonet, sadly I can't officially distribute it since Celestial got greedy about the Shaw footage. I'm hoping I can find a distributor who will pay for the footage for me or perhaps Mou will want it out enough that he will help out.

The runtime is looking like around 95 minutes.

[shapes]

Great work, looking forward to this, i just re watched man behind the sun last night , I saw it in HK when it came out ,classic,!
Just repalce the shaw footage with stills.

[Markgway]

In an ideal world we would have this doc on a 2-disc set with Bank Busters.

[Stuntman Jules]

\Just repalce the shaw footage with stills.
I thought about that, but honestly, it's way more effective with the footage and their price is expensive but not impossible. I hope Men Behind the Sun's copyright holders go easier on me and that may be a huge help. But I'm raising money for my next film so I might as well get completion funds for this one.

I also want to look into getting actual footage of Mou's early Taiwan neo-realist movies (the Taiwan film archive has them) and Bank Busters. He wanted to be the Asian DeSica but the banning of his early movies turned him into the political exploitation master we know and love today. In fact he never really stopped being the Chinese DeSica, he just started making his socially relevant movies a lot more violent.

In an ideal world we would have this doc on a 2-disc set with Bank Busters.

Oh yeah! Thanks! Mou was not happy to hear that Celestial dumped that movie, it's his favorite of all of his Shaw output and he really put his heart and soul into it and tried to make something that seems like sort of a Hong Kong equivalent to Fukasaku's yakuza movies.

More doably, my film could be the last disc on a remastered Bluray box set with the two Black Suns. Releasing his Taiwanese films could be possible too.

In a truly ideal world, we could have something like Anchor Bay's Bava sets. It would start with Mou's early films I Didn't Dare Tell You and At the Runway's End possibly double billed on one disc, then we'd have Bank Busters and Lost Souls with Gun and The Prize Winner as special features on the two respective discs, then a beautifully remastered version of Young Heroes and pristine remastered HD versions of Men Behind the Sun and Nanking Massacre with my documentary as the final disc.

[Knetan]

hey,

I enjoyed your piece on the making of the doc and would be very interested in buying a copy come release time.

Since my switch in direction on my own site (http://www.sogoodreviews.com) I've been contemplating taking on Mou's work but am not sure yet I have the proper brains to do so. If I'll go in order I'm sure I can get some bearable reviews out of the way.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

[Markgway]

If a distributor showed genuine interest in Bank Busters I'm sure they could get it.

It's just that no one (openly) cares.

[ekisha]

Sorry for off top. I want to watch Men Behind The Sun as well. My question is to those who have seen it. Do they kill real animals in this movie? That's the thing i hate most, so i try to skip such movies. Your answer is appreciated.

[Stuntman Jules]

Sorry for off top. I want to watch Men Behind The Sun as well. My question is to those who have seen it. Do they kill real animals in this movie? That's the thing i hate most, so i try to skip such movies. Your answer is appreciated.
The cat was not killed, the rats were of course. The farming community was apparently quite glad, though.

[Markgway]

Even if the cat survived I'm sure it wasn't having fun with all those rats licking the jam off it.

Rats are living creatures who feel pain so it's blatantly wrong to film their extermination for entertainment.

[HAZ]

I've heard great things about this doc. Kudos for getting this together. Best of luck! I hope we get to see more Mou films in the future.

[shapes]

If that cat scene was submitted to the BBFC Mou might get arrested.
taliking of sick, Godfrey Ho used real dead human's in Laboratory of the devil

[Stuntman Jules]

Let's not get morally upright about the animals. I don't totally endorse all of Mou's filmmaking techniques for his movies, but I find him fascinating and he's quite a nice, honest fellow.

I'm sick of people and their ruffled features over that cat scene. The cat scene was a special effect and the cat was cleaned and returned to its owners. The rats would have mostly been poisoned anyways and it helped Northern China's agriculture. Could he have axed that shot if he wanted to, probably, but it is effective and the plague rats probably were set on fire when the Japanese retreated from 731.

It was also in 1988 and is over now and the whole fact that people care so much about the animals annoys Mou greatly when the whole point of the movie is the desecration of humanity, the victims of 731, etc. In China they have different values about animals. Cats are a delicacy in Southern China.

taliking of sick, Godfrey Ho used real dead human's in Laboratory of the devil
I don't think Ho did, all the special effects in that awful movie look quite fake.

Mou did that for Men Behind the Sun. That bothers me more than his use of animals.

The frostbite scenes was done with real corpse arms, his niece played that part because nobody else would. The autospy was a real dead child (they were going to do an autospy anyways, Mou just filmed it and had the doctors dress up like Japanese doctors) and a live pig for the close-ups of the heart of being removed. They also used a real limb or two in that scene where the bacterial bomb is detonated. I bet the fetus in the jar is probably a real abortion too.

Do I agree with 100% and would I go that far personally, no. Is it effective onscreen and fascinating, yes. Men Behind the Sun is partially so disgusting because its real. Lots of other directors who are well regarded, Coppola, Herzog, Kubrick, have occasionally crossed the lines of common morality for their art. Art vs. moral decency is a huge dilemma and directors like Mou, Ruggero Deodato and Jacopetti and Prosperi make us really think hard about such things, which in of itself is not a bad thing.

Oh and thanks HAZ and others, anyone who wants a screener copy of the movie to review need only ask.

[Markgway]

If that cat scene was submitted to the BBFC Mou might get arrested.
taliking of sick, Godfrey Ho used real dead human's in Laboratory of the devil

It was submitted in 1991 and the scene was cut by 2:00.

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/AVV096392

Let's not get morally upright about the animals.

Er, why not?

I don't totally endorse all of Mou's filmmaking techniques for his movies, but I find him fascinating and he's quite a nice, honest fellow.

Well, that's OK then.

Is it alright if I go out and torture animals on camera as long as I'm witty and intelligent in my off time... or does that privilege only extend to filmmakers you hang out with?

I'm sick of people and their ruffled features over that cat scene. The cat scene was a special effect and the cat was cleaned and returned to its owners.

For years Mou courted controversy by refusing to confirm or deny those allegations over the cat's death. He brought it on himself. Regardless if the cat wasn't killed it would still be an extremely unpleasant experience to be stuck in a room with rats crawling all over you and nipping at your fur.

The rats would have mostly been poisoned anyways and it helped Northern China's agriculture.

That's no excuse. Besides the fact that I'm against the very idea of rats being poisoned simply for existing, to burn them alive is beyond cruel. You would yelp if you burnt your finger on a match; imagine your entire body engulfed in flames, your internal organs exploding from the heat... Fine if you admire the film (I thought it had some merit myself) and fine if you like the director as a personality but let's not talk shit to defend the indefensible. What he did was wrong. End of.

It was also in 1988 and is over now and the whole fact that people care so much about the animals annoys Mou greatly when the whole point of the movie is the desecration of humanity, the victims of 731, etc.

Oh noes, what an inconvenience for him. How dare anyone let animal cruelty get in the way of his lofty ambitions. When it's revealled that Mou killed actual humans to recreate his horror I'll listen. Until then I'd say the rats got the short end of the stick.

In China they have different values about animals. Cats are a delicacy in Southern China.

Doesn't make it right. Britain has fox hunting. I don't fox hunt. You can't blame the actions of an individual entirely on culutre.

Art vs. moral decency is a huge dilemma

It really isn't.

[Stuntman Jules]

It really isn't.
I'm not gonna argue on everything else because I hate when people get all uppety over this film and this thread isn't about animal rights. I don't think it was great, but Mou is human and everyone makes mistakes and sins. Thousands of animals die in our slaughterhouses in horrible ways day by day too yet people still go to the McDonalds drive-through. Also John Waters had a chicken crushed to death on Cookie Mueller's naked flesh for Pink Flamingos. It probably doesn't feel so hot to be crushed by two humans having sex either, but I don't hear nearly as many people complaining about that as I do for Men Behind the Sun. And it's probably because chickens are meant to be eaten in our minds, whereas cats, well, not so much.

I also dislike that this movie often gets singled out. Mou is hardly the only Chinese director to have killed an animal onscreen. Kuei Chih-hung burned the snakes in The Killer Snakes and even many kung fu movies feature a decapitated chicken or something like that. The Chinese, as said, have a different attitude toward animals.

Another point is that people have hypocritical rules that suit only themselves, killing cows and pigs is okay because we eat them, killing some rats for a movie is bad because how could we do something like that to the poor little rats when mother pigs are kept in crates that they can't even move in, male livestock are painfully castrated with no anesthetic and animals are often secretly tortured by farm and slaughterhouse workers who use them as a target for their frustrations and we allow this to go on because it keeps us fed. He who is without sin, in other words, please chuck the first rock.

And unless the point of your whole career was killing animals onscreen (I am very much against those crush films and garbage like that), if I respected you otherwise I would happily be friends with you. I'd love to meet and chill with John Waters, Ruggero Deodato, Jacopetti, etc. who have all killed live animals for their movies. I feel the same way about that as I would being friends with someone who has cheated on a woman or been a drug addict or has committed acts of delinquency as a youth or something like that, everyone's made mistakes and crossed lines they shouldn't have and I'll reserve my judgement.

However, there are a lot of artistically great films made by directors who weren't always on the best of their behavior, so I think it is a huge dilemma. A good piece of art is a good piece of art and sometimes it is hardly made under the most comfortable of circumstances, even Hollywood films like The Exorcist or Apocalypse Now. Are Roman Polanski's movies bad movies because he sodomized a young girl? Humans are very dualistic creatures and a lot of our art reflects that.

I will say that I can see why it offends people, I would not personally douse rats on fire and on some level Mou did kind of resort to the very thing he was protesting with the rat scene. Shiro Ishii and the Japanese high command believed human lives needed to be sacrificed for the glory of the Japanese Empire and the end would justify the means, sometimes artists can take that mentality for their art, but is actually a very common human pathology. I think Mou should be forgiven for that, ie, let the one without sin cast the first stone and the death of animals, as said, is a very common side effect of our existence so seeing it in a film doesn't bother me anymore. And to me that only makes his art more fascinating in some ways.

[Jack J]

Carozza, good to see you're "releasing" the film on dvdr!! I for one can't wait to see it.

[fiol]

is there going to be something about his martial art movie (Little Heroes 自古英雄出少年)?

[Stuntman Jules]

is there going to be something about his martial art movie (Little Heroes 自古英雄出少年)?
Yes, yes and more yes.

While Lost Souls, Men Behind the Sun and Nanking Massacre get the most airtime, Young Heroes is also covered and talked about. Mou is more proud of that one (I love it, a gorgeous Brothers Grimm-like Chinese fairy tale) than his Shaw film A Deadly Secret which he would barely speak of.

I think I told you once, they cut the film heavily for violence which is TF's biggest regret with the project, Mou's original cut had some Chang Cheh-like bloodshed.

[fiol]

Yes, yes and more yes.

While Lost Souls, Men Behind the Sun and Nanking Massacre get the most airtime, Young Heroes is also covered and talked about. Mou is more proud of that one (I love it, a gorgeous Brothers Grimm-like Chinese fairy tale) than his Shaw film A Deadly Secret which he would barely speak of.

I think I told you once, they cut the film heavily for violence which is TF's biggest regret with the project, Mou's original cut had some Chang Cheh-like bloodshed.

yeah i remember u told me so.. but as i told u, for me the movie was perfect like that without the chang cheh like bloodshed ^_^
anyway, looking forward to it :)

[Stuntman Jules]

yeah i remember u told me so.. but as i told u, for me the movie was perfect like that without the chang cheh like bloodshed ^_^
anyway, looking forward to it :)
The editing feels a little choppy and you can tell what was cut, a huge blight on the otherwise delightful film. The scene where the grandmother dies looks like is was pretty gory and the film just jump cuts to her lying dead in the river and the kiddies freaking out.

Mou was like "When people die in kung fu, there's blood". I agree with him and wish someone could find the original cut, but Mou has never been good at self censorship or knowing his audience. You can't put blood, even kung fu blood, in a kid's movie, especially in the mainland, most kids, save for some boys, don't want to see things like that and they warned him before he went to China to make it since the Chinese government spies often kept tabs on the Taiwan and HK film industry and knew Mou's background quite well.

[fiol]

The editing feels a little choppy and you can tell what was cut, a huge blight on the otherwise delightful film. The scene where the grandmother dies looks like is was pretty gory and the film just jump cuts to her lying dead in the river and the kiddies freaking out.

Mou was like "When people die in kung fu, there's blood". I agree with him and wish someone could find the original cut, but Mou has never been good at self censorship or knowing his audience. You can't put blood, even kung fu blood, in a kid's movie, especially in the mainland, most kids, save for some boys, don't want to see things like that and they warned him before he went to China to make it since the Chinese government spies often kept tabs on the Taiwan and HK film industry and knew Mou's background quite well.

I dunno .. when i watched the movie i didnt notice any "cut", maybe because i didnt know it was cut. I always thought it was made like that ^_^

[Markgway]

I'm not gonna argue on everything else because I hate when people get all uppety over this film and this thread isn't about animal rights.

It's not, but Ekisha brought it up and you choose to defend Mou. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything.

Pink Flamingos, The Killer Snakes

I'm also critical of those movies or scenes.

Another point is that people have hypocritical rules that suit only themselves, killing cows and pigs is okay because we eat them

Killing an animal for entertainment is worse than killing one for food. But to be clear both are morally wrong.

And unless the point of your whole career was killing animals onscreen (I am very much against those crush films and garbage like that)

These scumbags should be jailed or preferably shot.

Are Roman Polanski's movies bad movies because he sodomized a young girl?

No, because he didn't film it and put it on show. That was a personal trangression and nothing to do with his "art".

[Stuntman Jules]

I'm not really defending Mou, I'm just giving my opinion and saying the world isn't black and white and seldom is. That's the whole point of my post. Killing an animal for food isn't necessarily wrong (I'm not against the killing for meat, just the cruelty leading up to it), animals like cats and dogs do it, they die and its painful for them but the predator eats and lives on.

It's somewhat the same with art in my mind. That shot of the burning rats looked visually stunning and aided the film's visceral punch, the Chinese farmers were thrilled and had a good harvest that year and the scene also was probably historically accurate (the 731 youth corp members who saw the film loved it and said it was eerily accurate to what they experienced, except that what they experienced was much worse) but the rats died horribly. The world works that way sometimes, there are pros and cons of many actions, some of which would seem wrong on the surface and time often decides the verdict. Most believe Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war fast and was a morally justified necessity, but it caused utter misery to the inhabitants and the Japanese saw Nanking as the same thing (occupy the city especially brutally and that will send a strong message not to resist Japan to the Chinese which will save lives and make the war easier to win).

[Stuntman Jules]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_F_-8T_9zlp4/TG8fCpU7lpI/AAAAAAAAAqk/BQIcXEDEkAQ/s1600/tfmouflyer.jpg
Anyone who wants to come and can make it is welcome.

[venoms5]

I conducted an email interview with Jules Carrozza regarding his upcoming documentary. If any one is curious, it's linked below. It covers a lot of ground, mostly to do with Mou, his movies and other things. It's a very long, but interesting discussion peppered with a lot of pictures.

http://www.coolasscinema.com/2010/09/man-behind-camera-interview-with-jl.html

[Stuntman Jules]

A dozen clips, about a half hour of the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZZGkWd2VLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhQHI929Uaw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8m0eQmz6Kw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEL1-_mX-MQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZ-Gsu7A74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnwCMSAAILg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrfT_MSVVo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U72nMC4XblA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuN7plKIono
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeSdVrkiBq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_kip7Q6X20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-uvMli0Ejg

The screeners are almost ready to go out. Who wants one for their site or blog?

[Jack J]

bonjour guyz, im nouveau à ce forum.
salut im nouvel ici.

Your link:
Dysport - Injection Treatment Options for Wrinkle Removal

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Stuntman Jules]

Yes, that was not A HUMAN BEING!

[HAZ]

A dozen clips, about a half hour of the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZZGkWd2VLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhQHI929Uaw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8m0eQmz6Kw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEL1-_mX-MQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZ-Gsu7A74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnwCMSAAILg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrfT_MSVVo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U72nMC4XblA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuN7plKIono
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeSdVrkiBq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_kip7Q6X20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-uvMli0Ejg

The screeners are almost ready to go out. Who wants one for their site or blog?

I'd love a copy. The clips look great! Was Mou able to keep any of his films on 35mm?

[John]

It's not, but Ekisha brought it up and you choose to defend Mou. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything.



I'm also critical of those movies or scenes.



Killing an animal for entertainment is worse than killing one for food. But to be clear both are morally wrong.



These scumbags should be jailed or preferably shot.



No, because he didn't film it and put it on show. That was a personal trangression and nothing to do with his "art".

I'm interested in hearing your argument for pro-animal(?) morality.

[Stuntman Jules]

I'd love a copy. The clips look great! Was Mou able to keep any of his films on 35mm?
Thanks. I never asked him, but I hear he has 35mm prints of Man Behind the Sun and Nanking Massacre. Not sure about anything else.

I forgot to mention that it's also official, the movie's English title is Man Behind the Sun and not Men Behind the Sun. I had dinner with Mou and his wife, who speaks perfect English and she told that it was her who came up with that title. She chose "Man" because she wanted it to sound like more of a humanistic thing instead of being about specific "Men".

And John, let's not bring the animal thing up again. Nobody will ever agree on that topic.

[John]

And John, let's not bring the animal thing up again. Nobody will ever agree on that topic.

I won't, nay, probably can't force you to participate in further discussion. Which is fine, seeing as I didn't plan on doing so in the first place. Jules is hereby released of any such obligations.:tongue:

I recently watched a silent Soviet film called The Strike, infamous for its own bit of animal related violence and it got me thinking about this sort of thing. And I got to thinking about what the perfect harmony between animals and humankind would be; you know, the kind of thing that would make PETA cream their collective pants. But you know, I just can't see it. Intra and inter-species, nature can be a pretty cruel place. Introducing higher cognition into the mix, sure, we can appreciate the collective good and articulate what we think is good. But that doesn't change the fact that we are in competition with other organisms. We come with a price tag, ecologically. As long as we exist, we are guaranteed to screw over organisms by virtue of the fact that we consume resources. Really, the best thing we could ever do for other living things is to die out. If I could change the fundamentals of nature to suit my personal tastes, well, I should very much like to.

[Stuntman Jules]

I won't, nay, probably can't force you to participate in further discussion. Which is fine, seeing as I didn't plan on doing so in the first place. Jules is hereby released of any such obligations.:tongue:

:xd:

1. We have already gone over all of this. Nobody agrees and nobody ever will. Some people are solitary misanthropes who love animals more than people. Reasoning with those types is like resuscitating a corpse.
2. This is a thread about my movie and you are hijacking my thread. It's not about animal rights. If you want to go start an animal rights thread to debate opinions on animal rights, please do. I think there is an animal rights thread lying around here.

[John]

I wouldn't call it beating a dead horse because what I want is some actual reasoning instead of shotgun assertions about morality and I'll expect you indulge Markgway a response, but my share in the tangeant about Mou controversy ends with that curiosity.

[Stuntman Jules]

He's not going to give you that, moving on.

[HAZ]

I just got through with this, and I'm going to prepare a piece for the site, but I just wanted to say what an eye-opener this documentary is. "Conversations" gives the viewer a really sense of who T.F Mou is, and has me looking at his films from a new perspective. His films can be so extreme and shocking, that I've tended to focus on those elements, and largely saw Mou as a director of exploitation cinema. I was surprised to find out how politicized he is. I don't know if his early work is available, but I'd like to see those movies - his first films made in Taiwan were banned because of their social context. I now see him less as an exploitation film director, but more as someone trying to expose social ills, and the problems faced by the underclasses and the exploited. "Conversations" takes you through his early life, and walks you through his entire career - it's breadth and scope is very impressive, and the film moves at a decent clip, but never once leaves you feeling overwhelmed by information. I hope this doc finds wider exposure. Western audiences have been seldom treated to such an intimate look into the life & work of a Chinese film director.

[Stuntman Jules]

Thanks for the comments! Glad you liked it.

This is not the final cut, just a "for now" workprint edition. The final cut will have clips of Mou's early films I Didn't Dare to Tell You and At the Runway's Edge in it, he is working on getting me access to them. I'm also replacing the narration track as I have some new information and all and was never totally happy with it.

I have a film seller or two interested in it, so we'll see where that goes.

[HAZ]

Thanks for the comments! Glad you liked it.

This is not the final cut, just a "for now" workprint edition. The final cut will have clips of Mou's early films I Didn't Dare to Tell You and At the Runway's Edge in it, he is working on getting me access to them. I'm also replacing the narration track as I have some new information and all and was never totally happy with it.

I have a film seller or two interested in it, so we'll see where that goes.

I'd suggest hitting up Wellgo or Media Blasters. If either pick up any of his Shaw films, maybe they could include the doc. I have contacts for both, if you're interested. I know some film festivals that may have interest in this. Feel free to drop me a PM or email!

[Stuntman Jules]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcYDGu71Mt4

The DVD promo. Coming soon to self published DVD in a two disc DVD set.