Cat Versus Rat

[Blood Sword]

Movie which could have been masterpiece but not quite made it.From beginning 30 mins are best when 2 student teach each others skills,some great choreography and funny moments..

45 mins after that when Emperor arrives,it`s still good.There are few really good scenes,part where Fu Sheng tries to steal Jade is hilarious:bigsmile:...

Was expecting big things when Cat and Rat go after thieves but that is where disappointment came.There is few good moments but LKL went too far in slapstick and corny jokes:cry: in few parts it`s almost pain to watch...

Overall still recommendable and Fu Sheng displays his skill with sword more than one time:xd:

How do you guys rate this?

[KUNG FU BOB]

Back in the days when I was still collecting VHS and searching for anything directed by Lau Sifu, this was a really rare movie. It took forever to find, and when I finally did, my expectations had been built up tremendously by watching all of his other movies. I was sorely disappointed that it was a silly comedy and not a kung fu extravaganza. I had been led to believe it was more along the lines of the husband and wife from HEROES OF THE EAST competing via martial arts, except two guys. So I figured it would have some humor, but geez! I like the cast a lot, and some of it was very funny, but despite some good action, it was just not what I had hoped it would be.

I actually got the poster for it recently (which I like a lot), and that made me think- it's time to give this one another shot. After my second viewing I'll post my thoughts on it here.

[peringaten]

The choreo is awesome, Lau dai sigung (crazy, I gotta start calling him that now), can't help but teach, even when he's promoting silliness - the showcase of nine rings sword and spear usage from his brother is top notch, up there with anything from Heroes of the East or otherwise. That stunt of flipping off the roof is nuts. Yeah, it gets polarizingly ridiculous, but the choreo is incredible.

[MarsHarmony]

"Cat vs. Rat" is one of my favorite action comedies from Liu Chia Liang, and Fu Sheng.
I had no idea of what to expect, when I first found it two or three years ago on dvd, I even thought Fu Sing was supposed to be the cat!
It is presented with a no apologies attitude about how much fun this movie is, as a broad, almost cartoon style, very close to 'operatic' comedy. The characters and situations are all larger than life, and that supports the daffy style of play.
Adam Cheng Siu Chow plays his part perfectly straight, he is the balancing pole, the center anchor that all the nonsense revolves around, and he does a great job with what could be a dull role for the wrong actor, and he is super in the action scenes. Lydia Shum is brilliant as the 'Rat's' mother who spurs him on in their quest to be the premier family on the block. Kara Hui Ying Hung is so fun as her brothers, (Adam Chengs), one woman cheer leading squad and kick ass backup support. Hsiao Ho is a water rat, down to his drenched hair and whiskers. And I love Gordon Liu Chia Hui is so great, so funny as the Emperor.
Fu Sheng is hysterically funny at times. He manages to pull off a character, who is not a true good guy, nor is he really truly bad either, he is just a 'rat' looking out for his own, and yet is still the most likable character, a rogue you can't help but love. And I will just say in a nut shell that his martial art skill is very well highlighted throughout the film, especially in the scene with the wonderful Lau Kar Wing. They are awesome!
And for pete's sake, if NOTHING else, you get to see Johhny Wang Lung Wei have fun! That is worth the price of admission right there.
This is a brilliant and fun action comedy. It gives you a huge amount of talent and play, and with a sweet and good nature, and I have watched it at least five or six times. I love "Cat vs. Rat".
628 Fu Sheng and Adam Cheng
627 Johnny Wang Lung Wei, King Lee King-Chue, Fu Sheng, Chang Chan Peng, and Hsiao Ho

[MarsHarmony]

I actually got the poster for it recently (which I like a lot), and that made me think- it's time to give this one another shot. After my second viewing I'll post my thoughts on it here.

Oh, Bob! yes you should!

[KUNG FU BOB]

Okay, sounds like I must! :bigsmile:

[AbeRudder]

First half is far better than the second half, i wish Lau would of stuck with the rivalry between the two clans. Choreography is awesome as usual.

[KUNG FU BOB]

First half is far better than the second half, i wish Lau would of stuck with the rivalry between the two clans. Choreography is awesome as usual.

Okay, I rewatched it, and I have to agree with AbeRudder.

I was pleasantly surprised by the first half, and couldn't believe I'd had such a bad response to it during my initial viewing. Funny stuff, with some cool weapons choreography! I loved the battle between Fu Sheng and Lau Kar Wing- nice action. And I liked the intro of the Emperor, and the jade stealing too. But once Rat and Cat went to the island to retreive the jade it became a tedious chore to sit through. It seemed sloppy, pointless, and like big waste of time. The whole bit where the Rat gang was lowering from the ceiling to attack just seemed to go on forever! :sad: When it was over I put on the "wine tasting" scene from DIRTY HO to recover. :wink:

Still, overall, I'm glad I watched it again. So thanks MarsHarmony. :wink:

[GoldenPigsy]

I really ended up liking this one when I re-watched it. The first time I was blown away by the first half and left cold by the second. After watching it again, the inventiveness and creativity behind the second half started to shine through. It doesn't always really work, to be honest. Wang Lung Wei's jumping through the walls that are clearly plastic/canvas doesn't even have a chance to look good. Nonetheless, even the second half has some great moments.

And it's also a lot of fun to compare this one to King Cat, a late sixties version of the same story directed by Hsu Tseng-Hung. It's incredible how different HK and Shaw Brothers films had become in barely more than a decade. From wuxia to kung fu; from melodrama to comedy; from films with action to films built around action scenes.

[Iron Boat]

LKL films are like that, great first halves, wierd second half, slapstick almost out of place comedy, and freeze frame endings. For a director so serious about Kung Fu his films are wierd to me.

[Blood Sword]

It`s a real ashame he was not into serious kung-fu films.Choreography is 2nd to venom crew only,sometimes equal.

I guess there is fair amount of people who love kung-fu movies where is comedy and nobody gets killed or seriously injured(I love my young auntie,lady is the boss...) but for me bloodshed is cream on the cake:kiss:

[KUNG FU BOB]

Try out EXECUTIONERS OF SHAOLIN, SHAOLIN MANTIS, EIGHT DIAGRAM POLE FIGHTER, and LEGENDARY WEAPONS OF KUNG FU. All of these feature bloody deaths, the first three are serious stories throughout, and definitely all four have phenomenal second halves to them. LWoKF features one of the greatest weapons duels of all time!

[Blood Sword]

Try out EXECUTIONERS OF SHAOLIN, SHAOLIN MANTIS, EIGHT DIAGRAM POLE FIGHTER, and LEGENDARY WEAPONS OF KUNG FU. All of these feature bloody deaths, the first three are serious stories throughout, and definitely all four have phenomenal second halves to them. LWoKF features one of the greatest weapons duels of all time!
I have seen them all.....Shaolin Mantis I mentioned in another topic is one of my top10 shaws,diagram sooooo good too...I do not care much of legendary weapons or executioners(beginning where gordon liu kicks bucket is great tho)

[peringaten]

I was never that taken with Executioners compared to most other kung films until I started training in hung kuen, now I swear it's one of the deepest, if not 'the' deepest kung film possibly going as I can interpret. Gordon's death is some Chang Cheh residue sideshow to the serious deepness of what's really going on in this film I think.

[KUNG FU BOB]

I have seen them all.....Shaolin Mantis I mentioned in another topic is one of my top10 shaws,diagram sooooo good too...)

I just saw your list, and noticed someone disagreed too. I think SHAOLIN MANTIS is really underrated, and it's one of my favorites too. The story is really different from the usual genre stuff, and seems to make the film more powerful once it gets to the action.

I do not care much of legendary weapons or executioners(beginning where gordon liu kicks bucket is great tho)

When I first saw LEGENDARY WEAPONS OF KUNG FU, the comedy stuff in it was so grating that it really colored my opinion of the film. But if you go back and watch it again, other than Fu Sheng's scenes, it's a really bad ass movie with incredible action! I don't know- maybe you've already seen it more than once. But if not, I highly recommend a second viewing.

I was never that taken with Executioners compared to most other kung films until I started training in hung kuen, now I swear it's one of the deepest, if not 'the' deepest kung film possibly going as I can interpret. Gordon's death is some Chang Cheh residue sideshow to the serious deepness of what's really going on in this film I think.

That's cool man. :nerd: I feel you on that. A lot of films took on new meaning for me too after I started training. It definitely gives you a whole new perspective on what you're watching.

[Blood Sword]

When I first saw LEGENDARY WEAPONS OF KUNG FU, the comedy stuff in it was so grating that it really colored my opinion of the film. But if you go back and watch it again, other than Fu Sheng's scenes, it's a really bad ass movie with incredible action! I don't know- maybe you've already seen it more than once. But if not, I highly recommend a second viewing.




I have seen it twice.With english dub and subtitles.While there is some outstanding scenes(gordon liu is in those) there is not lot to offer me to watch if completely again in this lifetime.I am maybe only person in the world who yawns in last battle between Lau brothers....

[KUNG FU BOB]

I am maybe only person in the world who yawns in last battle between Lau brothers....

Yes! You're the only one. :xd:

[Morgoth Bauglir]

LKL films are like that, great first halves, wierd second half, slapstick almost out of place comedy, and freeze frame endings. For a director so serious about Kung Fu his films are wierd to me.

:ooh:

I honestly can't think of a Lau Kar Leung movie that has a good first half and a weird or bad second half, The only LKL directed movies I haven't seen are Cat vs Rat and Spiritual Boxer 1 and 2. All of the LKL movies I've seen are way better in the second half, mainly because of an incredible final fight. Shaolin Mantis maybe I could agree is better in the first half with the love story, then the second half almost has too much fighting. But I'm not complaining :xd:

The comedy isn't good at times I agree, but he still manages to deliver special moments like Hsaio Ho acting tough in front of the kids in Mad Monkey KF,the training in 36th Chamber, the emotional moments in movies like Challenge of the Masters and 8 Diagram, and there's no way I could list all the creative fights in his movies. I have no hesitation in saying he's a great director. A great movie director. Not just directing action.

[Tosh]

I thought the comedy in LWoC is great, LKL can go overboard with it though, have yet to see Cat vs Rat.

[KUNG FU BOB]

I thought the comedy in LWoC is great, LKL can go overboard with it though, have yet to see Cat vs Rat.

I can dig it now. But the first time I saw it, I hated all the Fu Sheng scenes. I think it's more that stupid music that plays during those scenes than anything else! But now- despite that annoying score- I get a kick out of the comedy, and totally appreciate Fu Sheng's physical comedy. I thought that Blood Sword might benefit from watching the movie sans those scenes. But if he's yawning during the climax... well, that movie is just NOT going to do it for him no matter what!:wink:

[teako170]

LKL can go overboard with it though, have yet to see Cat vs Rat.

Agree.

Its the only LKL film @ SB that I don't have (and one of 3 Fu Sheng films I don't own).
Have stayed away due to the excessive comedy (though I'm sure I will see it eventually).

Lady Is The Boss is one film where he went too far (for my taste) with the comedy.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Lady Is The Boss is one film where he went too far (for my taste) with the comedy.

Yeah, you're not kidding! Awesome finale almost makes up for it though

[Iron Boat]

:ooh:

I honestly can't think of a Lau Kar Leung movie that has a good first half and a weird or bad second half, The only LKL directed movies I haven't seen are Cat vs Rat and Spiritual Boxer 1 and 2. All of the LKL movies I've seen are way better in the second half, mainly because of an incredible final fight. Shaolin Mantis maybe I could agree is better in the first half with the love story, then the second half almost has too much fighting. But I'm not complaining :xd:

The comedy isn't good at times I agree, but he still manages to deliver special moments like Hsaio Ho acting tough in front of the kids in Mad Monkey KF,the training in 36th Chamber, the emotional moments in movies like Challenge of the Masters and 8 Diagram, and there's no way I could list all the creative fights in his movies. I have no hesitation in saying he's a great director. A great movie director. Not just directing action.

Well it will simply come down to personal preference but I will cite several of his films that in my opinion start out promising then devolve:

Executioners From Shaolin: Everything is fine until Enter the Wing Ding.

36 Chambers: Training sequences were awesome but once he leaves Shaolin the second half of the film is anti-climatic.

Shaolin Mantis: As you mentioned the love story bogged things down and the patriot family just didn't act realistically to the situation, it was a fairy tale.

Legendary Weapons: The beginning is fine with the establishment of the cult and viewing the boxers taking bullets, then it devolves into chasing a guy who doesn't want to be found, not very interesting at all. Liu and Fu Sheng were underdeveloped and underused. And the fight at the end, though many of you consider it one of the best of all time, it doesn't save the film from mediocrity to me.

Dirty Ho: This movie was approaching greatness until the second half kicked in, LKL decided to have Gordon Liu's character injured, unable to fight, the great choreography disappears and the film becomes unremarkable at that point. It literally goes from High to Low.

My Young Auntie: Kara is the lead in the film and she is doing a fine job, then for whatever reason LKL decides he wants to take over the film and make it about him rather than her. Basically he does all the fighting at the end. Shouldn't she had been the hero at the end or is it just me who feels this way??

Cat vs Rat: I haven't watched it but its second half has already been discussed.

8 Diagram Pole Figher: This film is actually perfect, but I learned about the original script that has Fu Sheng coming back in the end...actually he would of been the central character, not Gordon Liu. I am going to sound like a bad guy here in light of the tragic death of Fu Sheng, but this film, imo, benefited with the change in script. At least its my opinion that the original storyline isn't as good. I like the idea of Liu going to the Inn to save his sister more so than a brother.

Martial Arts of Shaolin: This is a film that really didn't need comedy at all, yet its there. It started great but then the comedy kicked in and the threat became a joke.

[Iron Boat]

I have seen it twice.With english dub and subtitles.While there is some outstanding scenes(gordon liu is in those) there is not lot to offer me to watch if completely again in this lifetime.I am maybe only person in the world who yawns in last battle between Lau brothers....

I think you and I have very similar taste and preferences,:bigsmile:

[Blood Sword]

Iron Boat,you pretty much nailed it....Only reason I think heroes of the east is "only" almost perfect film is because that comedian who is in executioners of shaolin+many other shaws is around.Scenes where he is are not that bad but not really film does not benefict of him foolinh there.

[Blood Sword]

I think you and I have very similar taste and preferences,:bigsmile:
yes,mate:wink:

[peringaten]

I don't think Lady Is The Boss goes too far - I'd argue My Young Auntie goes much further with the silliness; the dancing & wig scenes, etc... Lady is the Boss has superfluous stuff like the bike scenes & disco camera stuff, but that's just being entertainingly creative I guess; if anything the ridiculous comedy seems much more satirically purposeful in Lady than it might initially suggest; the silly '80s stylings & characterisations seem more an indictement on that sort of behaviour & the creeping lack of traditionalism & growing irreverence towards kung fu values that comes with commercial westernisation, whilst eventually stressing a need to embrace change. It seems like he's mocking folk who don't take kung seriously with the ridiculous characters in this one, rather than just being comedically ott. Says a lot about his values.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Yeah it is preference, but I agree with you on some.

Executioners- you got me there

36th Chamber- close to a perfect movie in my mind. A couple slow not great scenes right after he leaves the temple.

Legendary Weapons. I can't say I'm a fan of this movie. Some good fights.

Dirty Ho- other than the transvestite and the cripples scene, I think it’s a perfect movie. Love the fights with Liu on a crutch and in the chair.

My Young Auntie- I can’t disagree with you here. Still cool to see Lau Kar Leung in one of his finest moments in the final fight.

Martial Arts Shaolin- I haven’t seen this in awhile but I don’t remember liking anything other than the end fight.

You seen Return to 36th Chamber iron boat? Probably my 2nd or 3rd fav LKL movie.

[peringaten]

Executioners From Shaolin: Everything is fine until Enter the Wing Ding. I hated Wong Yue in this film before, now I think he is one of the strengths of the film. He is supposed to be somewhat effeminate, he represents the two sides of the ying & yang in one, the soft & the forceful, the tiger & the crane, that make up a pillar of the hung kuen system; the character is pure metaphor embodied. I hate the complaint I sometimes see that he doesn't forcefully stand up to Chen Kuan Tai's character in this film - that isn't the point; CKT playing a legendary founder of the system lacks his evolution. Embrace the "Wing Ding".

[Iron Boat]

I don't think Lady Is The Boss goes too far - I'd argue My Young Auntie goes much further with the silliness; the dancing & wig scenes, etc... Lady is the Boss has superfluous stuff like the bike scenes & disco camera stuff, but that's just being entertainingly creative I guess; if anything the ridiculous comedy seems much more satirically purposeful in Lady than it might initially suggest; the silly '80s stylings & characterisations seem more an indictement on that sort of behaviour & the creeping lack of traditionalism & growing irreverence towards kung fu values that comes with commercial westernisation, whilst eventually stressing a need to embrace change. It seems like he's mocking folk who don't take kung seriously with the ridiculous characters in this one, rather than just being comedically ott. Says a lot about his values.

I actually like the Masquerade Ball scene in My Young Auntie, it was funny. If the movie would of just stayed a comedy it would of been fine. In the case of this film, making it serious was the problem.

[Blood Sword]

Considering in most of his movies there is no killing and relationships between people+comedy are really important to LKL..makes me wonder did he ever feel uncomfortable working in CC movies because those are in different area,people almost always grave serious(except fu sheng and david chiang characters) and rarely all heroes survive.

[Blood Sword]

Martial Arts Shaolin- I haven’t seen this in awhile but I don’t remember liking anything other than the end fight.


Is this the one with Mantis Fist in the end fight?or was it part1?

[Iron Boat]

I hated Wong Yue in this film before, now I think he is one of the strengths of the film. He is supposed to be somewhat effeminate, he represents the two sides of the ying & yang in one, the soft & the forceful, the tiger & the crane, that make up a pillar of the hung kuen system; the character is pure metaphor embodied. I hate the complaint I sometimes see that he doesn't forcefully stand up to Chen Kuan Tai's character in this film - that isn't the point; CKT playing a legendary founder of the system lacks his evolution. Embrace the "Wing Ding".

Well I do understand what Wing Ding represents and how it reflects the teaching that LKL wanted to get across, but for me, you just simply can't take away Chen Kuan Tai and give my Wong Yue. LKL needs to remember that its still a film, it's still an entertainment medium, not everyone who watches it plans to study kung fu. So it is true he doesn't stand up to CKT in this film, but Wing Ding doesn't stand up to the character of the mother either. Its hard to see how He and She could produce a Wing Ding.

[peringaten]

Even 36th Chamber, after he leaves the temple becomes metaphor for characters & legends of the hung system being embraced into it; I guess you have to care more for the background of the art to get more out of it than just the action. LKL really was indulging his system, legends & backgrounds into the creative outlet.

[Iron Boat]

Yeah it is preference, but I agree with you on some.



You seen Return to 36th Chamber iron boat? Probably my 2nd or 3rd fav LKL movie.

Yes I have seen Return to the 36 Chamber and I think its probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite LKL film as well. I dont like Hsiao Hou's teeth in this film, its annoying to look at but the choreography in this one is brilliant. To be honest, I like it cause its a true Gordon Liu centered film. I realize my favorite LKL films are the ones that LKL are barely in or not at all.

[peringaten]

LKL needs to remember that its still a film, it's still an entertainment medium, not everyone who watches it plans to study kung fu.He doesn't necessarily. Kung fu is what LKL knows; why should he water it down further for commercial reasons? He's already done this enough, if you can't get on board with the rest that's your issue, of course. There's plenty enough out there to cater for other tastes; why shouldn't he indulge his background as personally & metaphorically creatively as possible, that's where the man's genius stands - Wending is a result, shame you don't feel it in some part.So it is true he doesn't stand up to CKT in this film, but Wing Ding doesn't stand up to the character of the mother either. Its hard to see how He and She could produce a Wing Ding.Your perception; not a truth.

[Iron Boat]

Even 36th Chamber, after he leaves the temple becomes metaphor for characters & legends of the hung system being embraced into it; I guess you have to care more for the background of the art to get more out of it than just the action. LKL really was indulging his system, legends & backgrounds into the creative outlet.

You like the lessons, I like the movie making aspects, climatic endings, storytelling, character development, LKL, imo, sacrifices the art of filmmaking, the flow of the story, and substitutes it with a forced lesson of ethics, morality, and values. So I totally understand what his films are teaching and it does serve a good purpose but I think he should detach his own views sometimes and allow the characters to act within their own universe on film. LKL almost comes across as a narcissist and self indulgent.

[Iron Boat]

Is this the one with Mantis Fist in the end fight?or was it part1?

Nah, its the only Shaw film that features Jet Li, and it has some serious undercranking going on

[peringaten]

You like the lessons, I like the movie making aspects, climatic endings, storytelling, character development, LKL, imo, sacrifices the art of filmmaking, the flow of the story, and substitutes it with a forced lesson of ethics, morality, and values. So I totally understand what his films are teaching and it does serve a good purpose but I think he should detach his own views sometimes and allow the characters to act within their own universe on film. LKL almost comes across as a narcissist and self indulgent.I'd say an auteur with a overwhelming creative respect for his artform & heritage. We'll just have to beg to differ. I don't think it's possible to 'sacrifice the art of filmmaking', when it's such a subjectively wide-spanning creative medium; it is whatever it is. What's wrong with his morals & ethics? Why shouldn't his characters embody them? Can you truly 'totally' understand his films until you look into the background of them or practice hung kuen a bit - probably not - of course this will ostracise, but all things must in some part.

[Iron Boat]

I'd say an auteur with a overwhelming creative respect for his artform & heritage. We'll just have to beg to differ. I don't think it's possible to 'sacrifice the art of filmmaking', when it's such a subjectively wide-spanning creative medium; it is whatever it is. What's wrong with his morals & ethics? Why shouldn't his characters embody them?

Well for one I don't think that his lessons actually come across all that well in his films. For instance you mentioned the character of Wing Ding and the lesson sounds great on paper but his interpretation on film doesn't come across as very artistic or moving. I'd say he probably should of done a movie about Kung Fu that didn't feature combat at all, but just the lessons, teachings, poetry, studies. In a sense he's done that with Challenge of the Masters but then he adds a fight at the end that fails to deliver a satisfying conclusion.

With the lessons he attempts to get across on film why is there even fighting at all in his movies? As a result the fights have no blood, no deaths, no real anger, and to be honest, no real motivations. In a sense I can see why you support his theories because he is focusing on the spiritual, mental aspects of Kung Fu, the fighting without fighting, growing as a person, self control, etc...but his insistence on comedy, and in many cases juvenile hijinks ruins the delivery.

You may be able to verify if this is true or false but wasn't he released of his directorial duties on Drunken Master II in part because of his in somewhat stubborn film making philosophies?

[Blood Sword]

I have not practiced Hung Gar(only chen tai chi 7 years,over here serious lack of kung-fu schools)but I do not get how training hung fist would make me love more LKL movies.

As the old saying goes,for each his own but what LKL movies often lack is tension building and dramatic endings.

Choreography itselt is work of master,in that area LKL is genius.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Is this the one with Mantis Fist in the end fight?or was it part1?

Yes. At the climax of MARTIAL ARTS OF SHAOLIN Jet Li and his teacher each use Mantis Fist to fight the main villain.

Nah, its the only Shaw film that features Jet Li, and it has some serious undercranking going on

True it is Jet's only SB film, but id does have the scene Blood Sword was asking about.

[Iron Boat]

Yes. At the climax of MARTIAL ARTS OF SHAOLIN Jet Li and his teacher each use Mantis Fist to fight the main villain.



True it is Jet's only SB film, but id does have the scene Blood Sword was asking about.

Oh thanks for the correction, I can only remember the bad guy with a sword, they used mantis fist against that? I have it sitting on the shelf I may have to rewatch it. Got to admit, I didn't like the film but I did like the scenery, those on location shots are amazing.

[Blood Sword]

Those mainland china locations are indeed breathtaking.I have only part2,might be I pick parts 1&3.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Part one is fantastic!

Part 3 is strangely bland. But there are some breathtaking action scenes (and I agree- scenery) including that end fight. The guy that plays the villain there does usually use a sword (and is in fact a master swordsman in real life), but I kind of remember him losing the sword before or shortly after the start of this big fight in this one.

[Blood Sword]

Part one is fantastic!

Part 3 is strangely bland. But there are some breathtaking action scenes (and I agree- scenery) including that end fight. The guy that plays the villain there does usually use a sword (and is in fact a master swordsman in real life), but I kind of remember him losing the sword before or shortly after the start of this big fight in this one.
I remember it`s girl who delivers last strike but besides that(and mantis thing) not much memories of movie....

[peringaten]

I have not practiced Hung Gar(only chen tai chi 7 years,over here serious lack of kung-fu schools)but I do not get how training hung fist would make me love more LKL movies.Because that's what his movies are about much of the time.Well for one I don't think that his lessons actually come across all that well in his films. For instance you mentioned the character of Wing Ding and the lesson sounds great on paper but his interpretation on film doesn't come across as very artistic or moving. I'd say he probably should of done a movie about Kung Fu that didn't feature combat at all, but just the lessons, teachings, poetry, studies. In a sense he's done that with Challenge of the Masters but then he adds a fight at the end that fails to deliver a satisfying conclusion.

With the lessons he attempts to get across on film why is there even fighting at all in his movies? As a result the fights have no blood, no deaths, no real anger, and to be honest, no real motivations. In a sense I can see why you support his theories because he is focusing on the spiritual, mental aspects of Kung Fu, the fighting without fighting, growing as a person, self control, etc...but his insistence on comedy, and in many cases juvenile hijinks ruins the delivery.

You may be able to verify if this is true or false but wasn't he released of his directorial duties on Drunken Master II in part because of his in somewhat stubborn film making philosophies?Interesting points. But in respects his kung fu is hardcore, absolutely about kicking ass, no holding back with applications from forms, etc., quickest takedown possible it seems. With that you have to teach responsibility & humility, that's one reason I find the end fight in Challenge satisfying, in difference to yourself. I'm not saying I find all his comedy entertaining, but he's not CC, canto humour is one of his things... So far as DM2, main reason I heard he left is because he thought Wong Fei Hung should do the style he actually did in real life, Jackie not so much. I don't think this is unreasonable on LKL's part. Wish I had more time to type now, good discussion going on in here, must get to work...

[popsjnr]

I think this is one of the most underrated movies ever, I remember loving the dirty bootleg video copy I got hold of in 1993, the sheer madness of the choreography, how awesome Adam Cheng is (the footwork he unleashes when he has the spear fighting Fu Sheng's nine ring broadsword is mindblowing). Yes it goes a bit mad halfway with the emperor and the trip to Rat island, but it is genuinely funny something you cant say about most kung fu comedy.
I also love the fact that this movie is connected to House of Traps as Chin Siu Ho is playing Fu Sheng's character Pai Yu Tang-he even asks a masked Black Fox (Kwok Choy)if he is Chan Chao (Adam Cheng's role).
The scene that destroyed me in Cat vs Rat wasn't even a fight, the scene just before the spear vs broadsword fight, with the calligraphy brushes and the holder is the DEEPEST piece of martial arts instruction in ANY kung fu movie EVER made and an example of Pops's directorial genius.
As for complaints about Lau si-fu's other movies-come on!! My Young Auntie is the best kung fu comedy (alongside Treasure Hunters) and has my favourite fight ever-Pops vs The Mayor. Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is simply the greatest movie ever made and a perfect example of a "KUNG FU MOVIE" becoming something unique.

[gravedigger666]

^I would not say it`s underrated...Movie is most of time good but kinda direish end fights at island make it did not enter premier league in my book...Very well worth checking out but not top list stuff, just my 1 cent.

[jmungus]

cat vs rat to me is a selection of many fun scenes, charmingly cartoonish crap stage designs, some great fu and a lot of attempts in humour that just wouldnt work. at all.
totally disjointed effort, good time killer any day i dont mind annoying editing and mind numbing senseless staccato shenanigans tho.

[Alexandra]

I think this is one of the most underrated movies ever, I remember loving the dirty bootleg video copy I got hold of in 1993, the sheer madness of the choreography, how awesome Adam Cheng is (the footwork he unleashes when he has the spear fighting Fu Sheng's nine ring broadsword is mindblowing). Yes it goes a bit mad halfway with the emperor and the trip to Rat island, but it is genuinely funny something you cant say about most kung fu comedy.
I also love the fact that this movie is connected to House of Traps as Chin Siu Ho is playing Fu Sheng's character Pai Yu Tang-he even asks a masked Black Fox (Kwok Choy)if he is Chan Chao (Adam Cheng's role).
The scene that destroyed me in Cat vs Rat wasn't even a fight, the scene just before the spear vs broadsword fight, with the calligraphy brushes and the holder is the DEEPEST piece of martial arts instruction in ANY kung fu movie EVER made and an example of Pops's directorial genius.
As for complaints about Lau si-fu's other movies-come on!! My Young Auntie is the best kung fu comedy (alongside Treasure Hunters) and has my favourite fight ever-Pops vs The Mayor. Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is simply the greatest movie ever made and a perfect example of a "KUNG FU MOVIE" becoming something unique.


This movie has been discussed in AFS thread...because there are several opinions about it. I adore this comedy, I think is brilliant, the couple "Fu Sheng-AdamCheng" is absolute astonishig, the rythm of the lines and action is so fast that only good actors and a clever director could carry on, because is very hard to do. I loved too the scene of the destroyed calligraphy with the brush, and all the movie as a whole. Is a masterpiece of kung fu comedy. Just paying attention to the movements of Fu Sheng (prequels of many "Xerox Actors" as I say) he was a predecessor of many comedy touchs, and Adam Cheng is simply sensational. I expressed too many times my opinion about 8 Diagram Pole Fighter not only in AFS thread but in other place, is a masterpiece of kung fu cinema.
Understand "comedy" is very hard, the limits between ridiculous or comic is tiny, and not all the people is able to catch the finesse of some comedians. Of course is a matter of taste but c'mon, common sense too. Fu Sheng was a great comedian.

[popsjnr]

I read in some of the earlier replies that people are saying that a knowledge of Hung Gar helps in appreciation of Pops's (Lau si-fu) work...CRAP!! I have been learning Hung Kuen for 16 years BECAUSE of my love of Pops's movies, not the other way round-"Oh I've begun Hung Gar NOW I can UNDERSTAND Lau Kar Leung's movies, I was BLIND and now I can SEE....praise be!!"
Through watching Pops's movies I decided the style he knew was the one I wanted to learn, at the time I was practising other styles, but my decision had nothing to do with not comprehending the complexities of Pops's movies-good guy meets a bad guy, they fight, bad guy is too tough, good guy does some training and beats him up- WOW TOO COMPLEX!!!
I started watching kung fu movies when I was 10, in 1983, and Return to 36 Chamber was my 1st Pops movie, in the following few years I saw ALL the Warner Brothers Shaw releases, but I didn't ONCE think I NEEDED to know Hung Gar to revere the history, choreography, and style of Executioners or 36th Chamber or Martial Club etc etc, I knew they were beautiful hardcore shapes movies long before I started Hung Kuen in 1996. Do you need to ride a horse to love westerns???....no!!! Do you need to be a geek to like Star Wars....hmmm??
I know many kung fu fans who love Pops"s movies and dont train ANY martial arts at ALL is there devotion to this legendary man, any less than a person who trains Hung Gar or a.n.other style?? I dont think so!!

[peringaten]

I read in some of the earlier replies that people are saying that a knowledge of Hung Gar helps in appreciation of Pops's (Lau si-fu) work...CRAP!! I have been learning Hung Kuen for 16 years BECAUSE of my love of Pops's movies, not the other way round-"Oh I've begun Hung Gar NOW I can UNDERSTAND Lau Kar Leung's movies, I was BLIND and now I can SEE....praise be!!"
Through watching Pops's movies I decided the style he knew was the one I wanted to learn, at the time I was practising other styles, but my decision had nothing to do with not comprehending the complexities of Pops's movies-good guy meets a bad guy, they fight, bad guy is too tough, good guy does some training and beats him up- WOW TOO COMPLEX!!!
I started watching kung fu movies when I was 10, in 1983, and Return to 36 Chamber was my 1st Pops movie, in the following few years I saw ALL the Warner Brothers Shaw releases, but I didn't ONCE think I NEEDED to know Hung Gar to revere the history, choreography, and style of Executioners or 36th Chamber or Martial Club etc etc, I knew they were beautiful hardcore shapes movies long before I started Hung Kuen in 1996. Do you need to ride a horse to love westerns???....no!!! Do you need to be a geek to like Star Wars....hmmm??
I know many kung fu fans who love Pops"s movies and dont train ANY martial arts at ALL is there devotion to this legendary man, any less than a person who trains Hung Gar or a.n.other style?? I dont think so!!

Are we mocking me for saying hung kuen practice gives a deeper appreciation earlier in thread "blind, now can see" stuff? I'm not trying to claim any elitism. I'm not trying to state a non-practitioner wouldn't enjoy it equally as much. I would however not deny LKL's films have a depth that is only "absolutely" accessible if you practice some, or endeavour further. That's a factor which sets him apart; you can't build a house (or southern stylist) without foundation; hung is his. That foundation props everything he does. I think you're simplifying too much with good/bad/train/fight analogy. Are you telling me you don't gain understanding for your personal practice studying the way he approaches aspects on film? It can be cyclical. It's definitely not necessary to enjoy the work, but when do people ever really question all of the facets - let's take the first chamber of the 36th... what does this tell us about the manner in which they represent training foundation? Surely an outcome derived of this sort furthers appreciation? Subjectively, for me, of course. I'm no better than any others.

[RogueWarrior]

not to mention, movies are made to entertain the masses.

[popsjnr]

As I say the bottom line of pops's movies is as obvious as I said-good,bad etc-I loved pops movies when I was just a schoolkid in the 80's long before I even knew he was a Hung Kuen si-fu, my ambition to study Hung Kuen was lit when I discovered this. But to say I found any hidden meanings in pops movies after I began Hung Gar is nonsense...I began to recognise techniques certainly definitely.
Anyway I understand your enthusiasm with your connection to your si-tai-gung Lau Kar Leung, I feel the same way when I watch movies about my si-tai-gung Lam Sai Wing like Magnificent Butcher-but I know any kung fu fan feels the same and gets the same buzz I do.

[peringaten]

RW, sure movies are made to entertain... of course, that was Shaws' forte. Have you seen that Red Trousers docu with an LKL interview though? He states first-hand he wasn't so bothered about the commercial side; his primary preoccupation was to exalt martial arts, says if he did that he considered the work a success regardless any other reception or commercial/critical acceptance.

Popsjnr, of course the meanings aren't hidden, they're there for all, laid bare, just depends on levels of understanding what you get out I guess, like anything. Some might think "weird funny esoteric training", some might really adapt some principles; everyone wins if they enjoy it. It's like jazz; music speaks to anyone, but maybe musicians will appreciate the theoretical complexities that go into the melting pot of a "Giant Steps" more than most for one analogy, but do you want to explain it as soul or command... there's an enjoyment or appreciation open to anyone if they want to dig deeper, their reaction can grow, positive or negative, if something's genuinely thoughtful & insightful, quality not necessarily at first fully recognised until absolutely mined, positive appreciation can grow. Let's take the beginning of Challenge of the Masters. Characters behind are the 12 Bridges of hung kyun... LKL represents through Gordon his take on their principles over the course of the opening. If I watch it without any kung understanding what do I get out of it; if I watch it with kung understanding what do I get out of it? Both give something. Dig deeper & it's a whole world of meaning. Surely. It's like forms - people don't always get them - anyone can appreciate athleticism, but what can you derive when you understand form operation properly as mnemonic document of technique, drills & application? Some think they're dancing, some know how to use them as conditioning & more... It's not only recognising technique, LKL's films are full of history, principals, application, etc., it's a frequent template. Sure there's training, but how are they training? Or moving? Approach to technique informs nicely. You state good/bad, but LKL wasn't just that simple, not like most of his peers black & white approaches for certain - for instance Martial Club - at which point is Wang Lung Wei actually a villain? At which point is Robert Mak properly a goodie? All the characters/schools have their deliberate motivations & reactions. It's about moral character, fallibility & redemption. LKL's films always dealt with this sort of stuff, Challenge, Heroes ot East, Legendary Weapons, etc.. Good or bad seems more the way your moral character is changeably swayed both polars in LKLs works; particularly through control of the self. Kung fu. What's Gordon's first move in the alley? It's not physical. Most of the characters & situations he uses are based within the history & legend of the systems or present his take on certain viewpoints. If you get them, it's very telling. If not, it's probably a bit esoteric, yet entertaining all the same. Look at Executioners - is hung hei goon fully a hero? As presented he's obstinate, stubborn & refuses to adapt to the relaxed technical principles his wife & others understanding offers; toils away breaking himself down. He has to die to make way for new understanding & development. And not only hung hei goon is open to interpretation in that one. Everything is always. Are not characters sometimes metaphorical? Depends which way you read it, either way anything creative is fully open to subjective interpretation - look at the source which derived it for one. Surely? LKL's a fucking well of good stuff, these movies are a hung based contribution derived from one proper helmsman's deepest understanding, whether he's my dai sigung or not...

[RogueWarrior]

FYI, I know Hung Ga pretty well. This is me (I am with the spear and in black long sleeves on the 2 man sets) and yes, I still train till this day. (coming on 30 years)

Yes, LKL movies are very deep for those in the know and yet entertaining for the non martial artist.

Nice post peringaten. You explained it well.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3NIWJq4Xok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1kcTEzx5Mw

[peringaten]

Nice videos RW! Just checking out some of your others - you have very good technique.

[clfnole]

Always liked YC Wong's hung kuen. Also nice that you guys have some pek kwar in your system from Gan Dak Hoi.

[RogueWarrior]

My Sifu is a good man. Good skills too. Wow, I had a nice head of hair back then!!!

Thanks for the kind words. I must train harder! (I just did Pek Kwar Do this Am too!)

[popsjnr]

I see you mention Executioners and the presentation of Hung si-jo's staid character, our lineage doesn't make any mention of Hung Wen Ding and that the combination of Fu Hok was Hung si-jo's work (although the actual form was created by Wong Fei Hung). I dont recall any mention of Hung si-jo's son in any lineage chart, and my teacher has never spoke of a son or his influence.
Mark Houghton, Lau si-fu's English disciple, also states the Fu Hok technique comes from Hung si-jo and that si-jo succeeded in killing Pak Mei, although si-jo died from his injuries incurred in the battle and also asks why the son isnt on any lineage chart?? (this is on the audio commentary of the U.K release of Kickboxer/Once Upon a Time a Chinese Hero).
I believe that Executioners from Shaolin is an stunning movie, but I dont take the story as gospel truth.
Again I love pops movies (ALL OF THEM-I wouldnt have written an article dedicated to him in the last Eastern Heroes magazine if I didnt or even bothered to learn Hung Kuen) and I love to see how he utilises the Hung Kuen in his choreography...but hidden deep meanings only for Hung Gar stylists??...no.

[peringaten]

Of course Executioners isn't gospel truth; I don't think it matters if any of the characters ever even existed. Hung folklore, extrapolation & creative licence. My point is I see how they work metaphorically as principles that work in practice; subtle or obvious, doesn't matter - they are in part representative hung tenets in this presentation.

[RogueWarrior]

I mentioned this somewhere else on these boards. Notice Gordon Lius character in Executioners uses Dragon, Snake and Leopard but not the other 2 Hung animals in the opening?

I thought that was clever.

[18JadeArafats]

Whoooaaa, that is clever. And as good an excuse as any to go back and watch that movie.

[gravedigger666]

Again I love pops movies (ALL OF THEM-I wouldnt have written an article dedicated to him in the last Eastern Heroes magazine if I didnt or even bothered to learn Hung Kuen) and I love to see how he utilises the Hung Kuen in his choreography...but hidden deep meanings only for Hung Gar stylists??...no.

I am not sure do I have last eastern heroes..Was it one where was article about Fu Sheng too?
If you are Chris I enjoyed lot reading your reviews in EH, tho now thx to dvd-time and getting actually hold of them (shaws), disagree some(not many):tongue:

[popsjnr]

Yes I am Chris who used to write for Eastern Heroes (and the last issue was the one with my Fu Sheng and pops pieces in it-the Fu Sheng piece has been posted on the Alexander Fu Sheng thread recently)-as for not agreeing with some of my reviews--good, everyone is entitled to their own opinion just as I am, some people love Jet Li movies, I cant stand him or his films!! One man's classic is anothers piece of shit!!It would be a boring world if we all liked the same movies and this forum would be dull too!!

[gravedigger666]

Yes I am Chris who used to write for Eastern Heroes (and the last issue was the one with my Fu Sheng and pops pieces in it-the Fu Sheng piece has been posted on the Alexander Fu Sheng thread recently)-as for not agreeing with some of my reviews--good, everyone is entitled to their own opinion just as I am, some people love Jet Li movies, I cant stand him or his films!! One man's classic is anothers piece of shit!!It would be a boring world if we all liked the same movies and this forum would be dull too!!

I`m not huge fan of Jet Li..Shaolin temples are decent, ouatic#1 too.Besides those I like only dragon fight and kiss of the dragon.Have not bothered to check out all tho, too much wires and storylines do not appear interesting either often..I remember in one EH when you applaused sword stained with royal blood, it took me actually 2 years to get vhs copy of it, but worth the wait.Now on dvd/internet era did found out there are better ones but during time it was still one hell of a movie.And still is...

[popsjnr]

Yeah those old Malaysian bootleg prints going around in the early 90's were great...I remember it took me 3 or 4 watches of Sword Stained thru the fuzz and blotches on the vhs print to figure out the story so I could write the review. Never thought back then there would be a crystal clear version on vhs (let alone vcd, or DVD which didnt exist then).
Now Sword Stained is my no1 Venoms movie, Kwok Choy was never better, and its no longer painful to have multiple viewings, which you could never say about the tape!!

[gravedigger666]

^I do not have mag at hand but I think it was toby russel short review in EH who made me to track down The Young Avenger.EH was truly great mag, I miss so badly those days of EH and MIHK video label.Of course I cannot complain thing almost everything available easily these days. but it was experience 20 years ago to get hold of new EH or video tape of kf movie...
Well, did you teach jackie drunken fist?I recall there was one photo of you and jackie posing?
:angel:

[popsjnr]

No I certainly posed Drunken style, then I heard a rush of wind, that genuinely sounded like a shapes movie, and suddenly Jackie was doing it too...Toby put the video footage of the whole thing on his rarescope release of Cub Tiger From Kwangtung.
Yeah those days were good except for working in the shop which was 90%bad, the best time there was just before it shut down, and meeting Kwok Choy about 10 times while he was making the Bond movie.
I preferred it when DVD took off and all the companies were releasing stuff, and you coukd buy stuff in Chinatown-and when the Shaws came out I was there every fortnight until 2007 when EVERY DVD shop shut??.

[Alexandra]

http://www.kungfucinema.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=52&pictureid=3550

:wink2:

[Eastern Evil]

Lung Tien Sheng has a small part in this, right?
I'll have to watch it again. he is becoming one of my tope 5 favorite Shaw Brothers actors.
Fan mei Shen is on the list also for his crazy eyes :biggrin:
Well, that is 3 Shengs on my list.

1 Alexander Fu Sheng
2 ku Feng
3 LungTien Sheng
4 Phillip Kwoc
5 Goo Goon Chung
6 Fan Mei Sheng
7 Bruce Tong
8 Lu Feng/Chiang Sheng (4 Shengs, I guess!)

It's 4:30 AM & I need sleep.
back to this later.
Glad to see a few threads bumped today/yesterday.

This is a great site, but I wish people would post more often!!!!



Goiod night & Happy New Year to all

[MarsHarmony]

Lung Tien Sheng is in Cat vs. Rat and I think he was having fun with his part. I like him too, he's in four of Fu Sheng's films and he has a great part in Boxers Adventure with Meng Fei, and many others of course.