DVD-R = Bootleg?

The Silver Fox · 08-01-2009, 06:21 PM

Seeing how the PanMedia issue is being discussed I figured it would be relevant to discuss DVD-R's and how they figure into things.

Okay,so the consensus seems to be that buying from bootleg distributors like VideoAsia,PanMedia etc. is wrong/ immoral/a bad thing to do/ etc. Okay fine. My question is if that is wrong, how can making a DVD-R of a commercial release and then selling or trading it be okay?

The reason I ask is because to me it's the same thing. You would think there would be a somewhat uniform consistency but I submit that alot of us in Kung Fu fandom suscribe to a morality of convenience. Some here rail on the evils of bootleg distributors yet wouldn't think twice about buying/selling/trading DVD-Rs.

Curious as to what others think.

Blood Sword · 08-01-2009, 07:19 PM

This is issue I have been thinking a lot and will do again in future.Buying bootlegs is bad but if doing so encourages shop to take into shelf legal releases it`s not all that bad.Downloading is best choice but not all items are available and not every1 wants to mess up with torrents meincluded...trading also if you make dvdr of copyrighted film a la ivl,golden harvest etc..and exchange it to film you are after not good either...
Buying legal release is best way to support industry which has small amount of customers and if legal not available then get it by other way...

littlefuzzy · 08-01-2009, 07:27 PM

My opinion, for what it's worth, is this:

First of all, from what I understand, many of the bootleg operations are funnelling money into Triads or other organized crime, including drug organizations. I really don't know if that applies to the bootleg MA dvds or not.

Second, if something IS readily available in the US (or whatever your country of origin is,) OR is readily available as a legitimate import, then it shouldn't be bootlegged. However, say something was released on a small run of VCD or DVDs 5-10 years ago (or even VHS even further back,) the publisher isn't making it any more, and it's hard to find... I have no problem with a fan in the community sharing that with other fans, either by trading, or even selling it for a nominal fee (say $5 or so to cover the cost of the disc and shipping.)

If someone had, say, the "ultimate edition" of Drunken Master with the uncut original audio, and accurate subs, I would love to get that. I've already bought the US disc, and I doubt I'll double dip with an import, as all the other versions appear to have various problems as well.

I have been aware of bootlegs in the Anime community for many years. Again, if it is something released in the US, then commercial bootlegs are bad. However, if it hasn't been licensed in the US, fan subs are great (preferrably as free downloads from usenet or torrents.)

For that matter, certain bootlegs of titles still under copyright in the US wold be acceptable to me, if there is no sign of a legitimate release ever coming - Song of the South, Porgy & Bess (with the musical numbers intact,) and so on. Still, I'd prefer not to support a bootleg company that may be tied to organized crime.

Fightingfist · 08-01-2009, 07:58 PM

Bootlegs not that good.

lillippa328 · 08-01-2009, 11:09 PM

Way i see it is like this.......

I personally believe all these "bootleg" companies give the rightful owner a cut...other wise they would be stopped by now dont you think? I think they make more money buy letting the bootleggers mass produce it for them for cheaper, and they get a cut, and simultanteously release the legal versions here and there....for obvious reasons...

also...does Shaw even see money if I purchase a Celestial? I dont even think they do, and i know for a fact LKL and GL ect... dont......

and have this shit you cant find

i prefer the real versions but ill take what I find

Morgoth · 08-01-2009, 11:29 PM

No company partners with Red Sun/Bonzai/Panmedia, and they don't get any cut. At least no company like Image, Dragon Dynasty, Media Blasters, Well Go USA… It just doesn’t make any sense. Red Sun/ DVDs don’t play a lot of the time, or they play, but then stop playing after a month or 2. Not all of them do that, but I have at least 10 Red Sun DVDs that I had to throw away because they don’t play anymore. Also when the pirate copies these movies, a lot of the time he messes up the transfer and the picture quality isn’t nearly as good as the original release (Executioners, 3 Evils...). Also, the audio is horrible on at least half of my Red Sun DVDs. I could go on and on with these problems, and no legit company would allow these types of problems on their DVDs, at least not consistently like Red Sun does. Trust me they get no cut. No legit company would be associated with Red Sun. After I found out Red Sun was a boot company, I decided to not support them anymore, but I figured that if I wanted an English dub, then it would be ok to buy from them. But then that really bit me in the ass and every DVD I bought from them had audio problems. The English dub on Brave Archer 2 is completely inaudible.

I agree with fuzzy, the only bootlegging or DVDR trading that should be done is on movies that are rare and don’t have a DVD release or are out of print. If you want to keep buying these crappy DVDs and and let Red Sun hurt the chances for legit releases, then go ahead.

Also, if you have any legit Shaw releases, then it is a print from Celestial. SB got their money. No need to worry about that.

nectarsis · 08-01-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlefuzzy

My opinion, for what it's worth, is this:

First of all, from what I understand, many of the bootleg operations are funnelling money into Triads or other organized crime, including drug organizations. I really don't know if that applies to the bootleg MA dvds or not.

Second, if something IS readily available in the US (or whatever your country of origin is,) OR is readily available as a legitimate import, then it shouldn't be bootlegged. However, say something was released on a small run of VCD or DVDs 5-10 years ago (or even VHS even further back,) the publisher isn't making it any more, and it's hard to find... I have no problem with a fan in the community sharing that with other fans, either by trading, or even selling it for a nominal fee (say $5 or so to cover the cost of the disc and shipping.)

If someone had, say, the "ultimate edition" of Drunken Master with the uncut original audio, and accurate subs, I would love to get that. I've already bought the US disc, and I doubt I'll double dip with an import, as all the other versions appear to have various problems as well.

I have been aware of bootlegs in the Anime community for many years. Again, if it is something released in the US, then commercial bootlegs are bad. However, if it hasn't been licensed in the US, fan subs are great (preferrably as free downloads from usenet or torrents.)

For that matter, certain bootlegs of titles still under copyright in the US wold be acceptable to me, if there is no sign of a legitimate release ever coming - Song of the South, Porgy & Bess (with the musical numbers intact,) and so on. Still, I'd prefer not to support a bootleg company that may be tied to organized crime.

Yet many of the movies were originally financed/produced/directed/etc. by triads ;)

Just sayin lol

Killer Meteor · 08-02-2009, 01:35 AM

I doubt most bootlegs are connected with traids or terrorists

As I say time and time again, the problem with Panmedia is that they sold their goods in legit stores, thus cutting into the market for legit dvds. Some goon in a car boot sale, or trading online, is not an issue for the legit companies.

And talking of DVD-Rs, Warners is now releasing some of its back catalogue on DVD-R only at extortionate prices

kungfusamurai · 08-02-2009, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killer Meteor

And talking of DVD-Rs, Warners is now releasing some of its back catalogue on DVD-R only at extortionate prices

I remember hearing somewhere about them offering movies from their vaults as a direct order. They certainly can't factory press it if it's on a per order basis. My concern is what kind of guarantee do they have with these DVDRs? If they used cheap discs that break down after a couple of years, will they replace the defects?

KFS

Mark Pollard · 08-02-2009, 04:22 AM

Our policy on the forums, which is line with my opinion on the matter, is that bootleg or DVD-R selling or trading of specific cuts that can be purchased through legitimate channels is bad for the industry and consumers and should not be supported by fans. However, public domain or out-of-print cuts of films are fair game for trade but should not be sold for profit, at least on this site.

This is why we take a hard stance on PanMedia/Red Sun around here because they bootleg indiscriminately, in such a way that is directly harmful to the industry. Not to mention, their shady marketing and shoddy authoring as others have suggested.

Fans should be purchasing legit versions of remastered Golden Harvest and Shaw Brothers, although I don't have a problem with seeing people trading copies of the old English-dubbed VHS versions. A lot of the original English dub tracks have not been re-released officially.

There is a lot of confusion over the status of independent films which in my mind makes most of them fair game. For instance, Tai Seng supposedly holds the rights to a selection of indie titles purchased from the Ocean Shores library. These titles comprise their Martial Arts Theaters series. However, they purchased rights years ago and Ocean Shores long ago ceased to exist as a functioning business. So does Tai Seng now own the rights to these films indefinitely by default? I doubt it, yet they still keep repackaging them and releasing them. Many of the indie kung fu films were long ago sold off or abandoned by their original owners in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

08-01-2009, 06:21 PM	#1
The Silver Fox Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 202	DVD-R = Bootleg? Seeing how the PanMedia issue is being discussed I figured it would be relevant to discuss DVD-R's and how they figure into things. Okay,so the consensus seems to be that buying from bootleg distributors like VideoAsia,PanMedia etc. is wrong/ immoral/a bad thing to do/ etc. Okay fine. My question is if that is wrong, how can making a DVD-R of a commercial release and then selling or trading it be okay? The reason I ask is because to me it's the same thing. You would think there would be a somewhat uniform consistency but I submit that alot of us in Kung Fu fandom suscribe to a morality of convenience. Some here rail on the evils of bootleg distributors yet wouldn't think twice about buying/selling/trading DVD-Rs. Curious as to what others think.

08-01-2009, 11:29 PM	#6
Morgoth Master Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,252	No company partners with Red Sun/Bonzai/Panmedia, and they don't get any cut. At least no company like Image, Dragon Dynasty, Media Blasters, Well Go USA… It just doesn’t make any sense. Red Sun/ DVDs don’t play a lot of the time, or they play, but then stop playing after a month or 2. Not all of them do that, but I have at least 10 Red Sun DVDs that I had to throw away because they don’t play anymore. Also when the pirate copies these movies, a lot of the time he messes up the transfer and the picture quality isn’t nearly as good as the original release (Executioners, 3 Evils...). Also, the audio is horrible on at least half of my Red Sun DVDs. I could go on and on with these problems, and no legit company would allow these types of problems on their DVDs, at least not consistently like Red Sun does. Trust me they get no cut. No legit company would be associated with Red Sun. After I found out Red Sun was a boot company, I decided to not support them anymore, but I figured that if I wanted an English dub, then it would be ok to buy from them. But then that really bit me in the ass and every DVD I bought from them had audio problems. The English dub on Brave Archer 2 is completely inaudible. I agree with fuzzy, the only bootlegging or DVDR trading that should be done is on movies that are rare and don’t have a DVD release or are out of print. If you want to keep buying these crappy DVDs and and let Red Sun hurt the chances for legit releases, then go ahead. Also, if you have any legit Shaw releases, then it is a print from Celestial. SB got their money. No need to worry about that. __________________ . "When all this is over, Tan Hai Chi, I will kick your head off and put it on my brother's grave!" Last edited by Morgoth; 08-01-2009 at 11:41 PM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

08-01-2009, 07:19 PM	#2
Blood Sword Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 239	This is issue I have been thinking a lot and will do again in future.Buying bootlegs is bad but if doing so encourages shop to take into shelf legal releases it`s not all that bad.Downloading is best choice but not all items are available and not every1 wants to mess up with torrents meincluded...trading also if you make dvdr of copyrighted film a la ivl,golden harvest etc..and exchange it to film you are after not good either... Buying legal release is best way to support industry which has small amount of customers and if legal not available then get it by other way...

08-01-2009, 07:27 PM	#3
littlefuzzy Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 154	My opinion, for what it's worth, is this: First of all, from what I understand, many of the bootleg operations are funnelling money into Triads or other organized crime, including drug organizations. I really don't know if that applies to the bootleg MA dvds or not. Second, if something IS readily available in the US (or whatever your country of origin is,) OR is readily available as a legitimate import, then it shouldn't be bootlegged. However, say something was released on a small run of VCD or DVDs 5-10 years ago (or even VHS even further back,) the publisher isn't making it any more, and it's hard to find... I have no problem with a fan in the community sharing that with other fans, either by trading, or even selling it for a nominal fee (say $5 or so to cover the cost of the disc and shipping.) If someone had, say, the "ultimate edition" of Drunken Master with the uncut original audio, and accurate subs, I would love to get that. I've already bought the US disc, and I doubt I'll double dip with an import, as all the other versions appear to have various problems as well. I have been aware of bootlegs in the Anime community for many years. Again, if it is something released in the US, then commercial bootlegs are bad. However, if it hasn't been licensed in the US, fan subs are great (preferrably as free downloads from usenet or torrents.) For that matter, certain bootlegs of titles still under copyright in the US wold be acceptable to me, if there is no sign of a legitimate release ever coming - Song of the South, Porgy & Bess (with the musical numbers intact,) and so on. Still, I'd prefer not to support a bootleg company that may be tied to organized crime.

08-01-2009, 07:58 PM	#4
Fightingfist Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: UK Posts: 541	Bootlegs not that good.

08-01-2009, 11:09 PM	#5
lillippa328 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 669	Way i see it is like this....... I personally believe all these "bootleg" companies give the rightful owner a cut...other wise they would be stopped by now dont you think? I think they make more money buy letting the bootleggers mass produce it for them for cheaper, and they get a cut, and simultanteously release the legal versions here and there....for obvious reasons... also...does Shaw even see money if I purchase a Celestial? I dont even think they do, and i know for a fact LKL and GL ect... dont...... and have this shit you cant find i prefer the real versions but ill take what I find

08-02-2009, 01:35 AM	#8
Killer Meteor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 842	I doubt most bootlegs are connected with traids or terrorists As I say time and time again, the problem with Panmedia is that they sold their goods in legit stores, thus cutting into the market for legit dvds. Some goon in a car boot sale, or trading online, is not an issue for the legit companies. And talking of DVD-Rs, Warners is now releasing some of its back catalogue on DVD-R only at extortionate prices

08-02-2009, 04:22 AM	#10
Mark Pollard Administrator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 916	Our policy on the forums, which is line with my opinion on the matter, is that bootleg or DVD-R selling or trading of specific cuts that can be purchased through legitimate channels is bad for the industry and consumers and should not be supported by fans. However, public domain or out-of-print cuts of films are fair game for trade but should not be sold for profit, at least on this site. This is why we take a hard stance on PanMedia/Red Sun around here because they bootleg indiscriminately, in such a way that is directly harmful to the industry. Not to mention, their shady marketing and shoddy authoring as others have suggested. Fans should be purchasing legit versions of remastered Golden Harvest and Shaw Brothers, although I don't have a problem with seeing people trading copies of the old English-dubbed VHS versions. A lot of the original English dub tracks have not been re-released officially. There is a lot of confusion over the status of independent films which in my mind makes most of them fair game. For instance, Tai Seng supposedly holds the rights to a selection of indie titles purchased from the Ocean Shores library. These titles comprise their Martial Arts Theaters series. However, they purchased rights years ago and Ocean Shores long ago ceased to exist as a functioning business. So does Tai Seng now own the rights to these films indefinitely by default? I doubt it, yet they still keep repackaging them and releasing them. Many of the indie kung fu films were long ago sold off or abandoned by their original owners in Hong Kong and Taiwan.